I have my Breville Barista Express (BES870XL) for more than half year now and I have not had a good shot yet. I think my main problem is dialing the grinder. I tried numerous type of beans from Lavazza to illy, to local roaster or online roaster (Klatch WBC blend). The coffee I used has good reputation and fresh as hell so I think I am the main source of the problem. I follow every tips and tricks on this website and other sources. However, I keep trying to dial my grinder and nothing ever comes out good. I tried different dosage from 14g to 20g, grind settings, temperature and brew ratio. Nothing taste good even the variables were right, 25-30 seconds shot. I weighted everything to 0.1g accuracy and I have a calibrated 30lb tamper from Espro. Before I knew it, I went through 2 lb of coffee I brought online in 3 three days and I only get a very expensive latte that taste okay. Everyone online says experiment this and that but nothing ever works. I am a chemist myself and love experimenting but this has made me very frustrated. Can someone please help me a little and give a little guidance ?

You're likely not to get anything better than what you've already made, without a better dedicated grinder. If you're using the built in grinder on that machine, even great coffee like Klatch will be at best, mediocre on its best day.

A calibrated tamper is the wrong place to invest money (although they're not horribly expensive) it's unnecessary. It's more important to be level in your tamp and consistent in your methods.

Fresh, high quality whole bean coffee is your best bet. Canned Italian coffees might be ok once you crack open the can, but they tend to fade quickly, and that's not going to help you when you have fickle gear that is hard to work with. I'd stick with stuff like Klatch or others before going back to anything canned/ nitrogen flushed. But your first step should be to consider a stand alone burr grinder.

Yeah, sorry to say but I agree that you're unlikely to get anything better than what you're describing with that current machine. At first it looked like a super-auto, but luckily it's just 2 machines in the same housing.

Think about getting a Pharos or trying out a friend's grinder if you can to confirm that upgrading will solve a lot of your problems. You may also find another way to demo a grinder if you can find a used one for sale in your city. I'm not saying you have to try before buying, just that to give you confidence in how much a grinder will help, it would be nice to try a couple shots on your machine with one if you can.

If you want to jump right up to a new grinder, think about how much you like espresso, then think of how much you'd like to budget on a grinder ($400-2000 or so). Just save for the highest number you can. Read all you can in the grinder section, there's a lot of good ones people suggest here, but suffice to say a grinder is more important in terms of quality than the espresso machine. This is especially critical for making espresso, whereas for other brew methods you can get away with or not notice an inferior grinder.

I'm fairly new to this, but my experiences I would suspect the grinder part of the machine as well. I went down the same path as you with a Rocky grinder. Everything I did made crappy espresso. I purchased an HG One hand grinder and it was like night and day difference. I hug my HG every morning.

I kinda suspect similar problem with the grinder and considering an upgrade. (possibly Baristza Vario) However, I do want to get the most out of the machine before I move on to an upgrade.
Quick question though, I can get the same shot time by higher dose + coarser grind and lower dose + finer grind. How are they differ and how to I know which one I should chase for?
p.s. I do agree fresh roast is better than than the prepackaged Nitro flushed coffee, which are quite mono flavor. Fresh roast has much more complexity in it, even with the machine I have.

Bikeminded wrote:I'm fairly new to this, but my experiences I would suspect the grinder part of the machine as well. I went down the same path as you with a Rocky grinder. Everything I did made crappy espresso. I purchased an HG One hand grinder and it was like night and day difference. I hug my HG every morning.

I thought Rocky is a good grinder from what I heard.... But hey, what do I know!?

Awful out of date grinder for espresso, buying a Rocky for espresso would be like buying square tires for your car, may be able to get going but it will suck lol

Your problem is more than likely the grinder, and now you know why built in grinders are frowned upon, they only work decently with pressurized or double walled baskets as Breville calls them but then your not making espresso with those. A separate grinder upgrade and using the regular/single wall baskets and you would see a nice difference. The built in grinder is basically a Breville Smart shrunk down, itself not capable of espresso (owned one) even if shimmed to pull a decent looking shot it paled vs my Preciso in taste even though the Breville shot "looked" good.

I would check your dose, kinda doubting your getting 20g in that basket without hitting the screen and fracturing which would cause poor extraction.Lock in your basket with a nickel and see, or without.

cmin wrote:Awful out of date grinder for espresso, buying a Rocky for espresso would be like buying square tires for your car, may be able to get going but it will suck lol

Your problem is more than likely the grinder, and now you know why built in grinders are frowned upon, they only work decently with pressurized or double walled baskets as Breville calls them but then your not making espresso with those. A separate grinder upgrade and using the regular/single wall baskets and you would see a nice difference. The built in grinder is basically a Breville Smart shrunk down, itself not capable of espresso (owned one) even if shimmed to pull a decent looking shot it paled vs my Preciso in taste even though the Breville shot "looked" good.

I would check your dose, kinda doubting your getting 20g in that basket without hitting the screen and fracturing which would cause poor extraction.Lock in your basket with a nickel and see, or without.

Do you Baristza Vario is a good upgrade or should I aim even higher?
I'm not quite sure about what you mean by your last comment. Is it really neccessary to fit 20g of coffee in the basket? Shouldn't it be okay as long as the brew ratio is correct? It is a 54mm basket afterall...

leung_chi_hang wrote:Do you Baristza Vario is a good upgrade or should I aim even higher?
I'm not quite sure about what you mean by your last comment. Is it really neccessary to fit 20g of coffee in the basket? Shouldn't it be okay as long as the brew ratio is correct? It is a 54mm basket afterall...

Vario is an awesome home grinder for the $ and great for a home user as its almost zero retention goes tow to toe with the next class up.

As far as dose, doesn't work like that, has to do with volume not size of basket in mm width (and Brevilles small baskets from on the smaller side for volume). Example I have an 58mm double and 18-19g is about max and that basket runs on the large side for a factory double, others in its class can't come near it and are limited to about 15-16 max without hitting the screen or screw in case of the Silvia. You may fit 20g in, but it's more then likely going to hit the screen = fracturing = poor extraction which could be another issue your having. Depending on bean/blend/roast type I can fit just over 20g in my basket but it will hit the screen so pointless. Just to show how much that last part can affect, the beans/blend I'm using right now at 16.5g is pretty tight for clearance and fills up as much as others I've used at higher dose.

leung_chi_hang wrote:Do you Baristza Vario is a good upgrade or should I aim even higher?
I'm not quite sure about what you mean by your last comment. Is it really neccessary to fit 20g of coffee in the basket? Shouldn't it be okay as long as the brew ratio is correct? It is a 54mm basket afterall...

The best advice you can take is to spend as much as you can on a grinder within reason. Look around at some of the best grinders people suggest (Compak K10, Mahlkonig k30, HG1 and a few others....) and see if you can budget for that amount within a reasonable amount of time. If not, go for a Vario short term and budget long-term for an upgrade eventually. You'll see a huge difference in your espresso, especially with extracting the sweet and caramelly flavors.

You can try to "get your milage" out of your current grinder, but you'll probably end up wasting a LOT of coffee. Sink shots will probably be more normal than good ones.