My attempt - Silvia and Rocky, the video - HELP NEEDED!

by **jonbauer** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:47 pm

A few questions:

1) Why does the boiler light go on half way through steaming the milk? Is that ok?

2) My Silvia seems to make a funny sound at the end of the 25 second espresso pour - this started happening only recently. What is that?

3) Why don't I get any crema!??? :-)

Yes, I know that running out of beans half way through the grind is bad. Sorry!!!! :-)

Thanks for your friendly tips!

- Jon

by **OlywaDave** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:55 pm

Jon, as you may know I responded to your video via a reply to our previous emails. I'm going to post it here too so that I can be debunked and/or so some can add their 2 cents as well.

I paused your video to make each observation as they came to me. You might want to watch and read this at the same time too.

1) For starters I usually hold the steam wand flush against the side of the pitcher and introduce air by slightly submerging the tip. After adequate air is introduced you can bury the tip and circulate until you get the desired temperature.

2) The light turned on because new water has been replaced into the boiler the temperature drops and element popped back on which is indicated by the light. When I steam milk on the Silvia sometimes I will stop steaming for a few seconds and let the temp raise back up. When the light goes off you can purge again and continue.

3) The milk doesn't look too bad. You can tap the full flat surface of the steaming pitcher bottom on yoour counter to get rid of big bubbles. Our 4 hole steam tip for Silvia helps with micro-foam too.

4) OK with the Silvia purge the group after steaming until the boiler element light turns on again. After steaming the boiler water is much hotter than espresso extraction should receive.

5) Nice air tight bean storage... Great. You can keep a half to quarter of the hopper full without wasting the beans.

6) Tamping... Use your forefinger and thumb on the piston base for pressure. For most the handle keeps it in your hand and helps level most pressure should be directed to the base. Also try tamp - polish - tap side and wipe portafilter clean - tamp - polish - insert.

7) its tough to do but you need to keep your milk warm and circulating so spin it around the pitcher now and again so the foam doesn't separate.

The shot was pretty nice, my previous email will help with that so you can get that syrupy stuff everyone wants.

I'd also suggest that you concentrate on shots first as eliminating variables can help you concentrate. If you don't drink straight shots that will be more difficult. Drinking straight shots however really helped me understand in flavor terms what I was looking for and why.

I think you are doing better than most after a few days though

by **terryz** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:09 pm

Hey Jon,

The sound you are hearing is the discharge of pressure through the three way valve. It is a little louder simply due to the finer grind you have started using. The timer is cool, but my hope is that after a bit you ditch that and start tasting the coffee at different times. The rules are meant to be broken, so go for it.

Also, I should mention that if you tap your right foot and hum the hokey pokey, while steaming milk you will find that you can pour latte art. This is how Dave does it, I'm sure

You Tube is great, thanks for taking the time to put that together.

Cheers,

by **jonbauer** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:15 pm

Ah, cool. Terry - that sound worried me. Glad it's normal.

Great suggestions. Thanks Dave and Terry!

So...

1) When you are steaming the milk with the top slightly submerged, do you move the pitcher around at all?

5) Are you saying that I should leave the Rocky 1/4 to 1/2 full? Isn't the Rocky's hopper less than air tight? It would take me days to use all those beans...

6) Dude, can you make a video of a "perfect" tamp? If not, do you know of one? I wanna study it!

7) Jeez, that's gonna be tricky to do!

- Thanx!
- Jon

by **jesawdy** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:21 pm

Jon-

Your video is great in many ways.... it is full of things that at one will do when they are just getting started. Let me refer you to this thread real quick, where we are discussing whether to steam first or second, here are my steps:

jesawdy wrote:Heat Silvia for 30 minutes
Heat final cup (not shot glasses) either in the microwave with water or via hot water wand (I find hitting the beverage button on the microwave is a good option for me right now, I can move on to whatever is at hand and grab the cup, dump and pull when I am ready)
Grind into PF, tamp, polish
Flush grouphead with a tad of water
Lock in
Grab that heated cup, dump and dry
Pull DIRECTLY into the heated cup (if you don't know when to stop, either watch your naked extraction, time, or pull to a predetermined volume via sight... throw 2-3 ounces in an identical cup for a visual reference, you will learn to use a combination of all three indicators of when to stop)
Set your crema-laden cup aside
Hit the steam switch to start heating for steam (the Silvia boiler is huge, I would think you should be okay, but you may wish to top up the Gaggia boiler)
Flush water out of steam wand
While heating to steam, I pour milk into a pitcher stored in the freezer, and leave it there until needed
I also set to cleaning the grouphead with a flush, brush and a PF wiggle, at the beginning of the steam heating
Wait for your steam temp light to go on or off as the case may be
Flush water out of steam wand again
Steam your milk
Pour into the final cup ON TOP of your espresso, you should still have some crema left, just not as much
Enjoy!

Okay, as Dave said, you need to pull your shots first and steam second. EDIT - I misread Dave's post. I prefer to pull then steam, but I have a PID. Seems as though Dave likes to steam first even with or without a PID.

Your shot building was fine, especially for just starting. Refer to the dose and tamp techniques thread to get some ideas on improving your distribution and tamping. Also, you may be interested in the WDT. When you tamp, you may want to get your elbow up, so that your forearm is perpendicular to the counter surface.

For steaming, you are working the pitcher real hard up and down, see this and this for help.

by **OlywaDave** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:27 pm

Well I actually steam first too. I just store the steamed milk up top and pull'r down now and again to swirl it around so the milk doesn't separate.

Then I FLUSH. Flush that group and boiler until the element light flips on. Grind, dose, tamp and when you are done with that the light will have turned off. If it hasn't wait until it does then pull your shot immediately...

I actually surf mine this way by forcing the element (and light) to kick into gear then pull my shot.

I seriously forgot how much there is to consider in this espresso thing. Jon I promise you it will all come naturally very soon.

amended post....

Now don't go and PID your machine yet or anything but I wanted to add something about the PID'd Silvia that has to do with the above.

One thing I am really enjoying about the PID'd Silvia other than the consistency and control is the visual confirmation of temperature. Now when I flush post steaming I can flush the group/boiler until I see it fall to about 10 degrees or so above my set temperature. This is real nice because I don't over flush and the boiler gracefully falls right back to and maintains the set temp. Pretty cool.

But... For you Jon I suggest you learn your Silvia as is before you make mods. I had mine 3 years prior to the PID installation last week.

by **OlywaDave** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:50 pm

jonbauer wrote:Ah, cool. Terry - that sound worried me. Glad it's normal.

Great suggestions. Thanks Dave and Terry!

1) When you are steaming the milk with the top slightly submerged, do you move the pitcher around at all?

I don't really move it around other than introducing air and then submerging and angling for the circulating.

5) Are you saying that I should leave the Rocky 1/4 to 1/2 full? Isn't the Rocky's hopper less than air tight? It would take me days to use all those beans...

Nah... Personal preference. I add enough to the hopper for what I might use that day. Just make sure you got enough for your shots.

6) Dude, can you make a video of a "perfect" tamp? If not, do you know of one? I wanna study it!

I could possibly... My personal camera is here but running low on batteries. Maybe I'll snap a shot or two or even video tomorrow morning with my Silvia.

7) Jeez, that's gonna be tricky to do!

Yeah it is a little you'll get it. I just stop now and again between tasks to make sure the milk won't separate and that and micro-foam is only real important for latte art which is a whole 'nother ball 'o wax that I am just starting to conquer.

Speaking of Latte Art! Anyone see this yet? http://www.ratemyrosetta.com/index.php

by **jonbauer** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:21 pm

Holy s^*^%. I just made the best espresso yet, plus got a perfectly frothed steamed milk! Thank you for the help!

Special thanks to Dave for spending 45 minutes or so on the phone yakking about the process and stuff.

I didn't get any art going, but I'll work on that.

Check out my yummage:

- Jon

by **terryz** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:04 pm

Dave is a pretty good Barista, albeit "Not a Professional one" :wink:

45 minutes! geez, he must be trying to compete with Chris Nachtrieb. He barely talks to me that long.......... I think he wants to drive your Segway!

Nice work Jon, try the foot tap thing I swear it makes a difference.

by HB on Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:49 pm

Thanks Jon for posting the video, I took a few notes to compliment the observations others have made. I'll offer my "John Madden" style diagnosis without the crayons. :shock:

STEAMING: I cringed at the sound of the milk from 0:28-0:45 seconds and around the 0:51 second mark. It was the sound of big a** bubbles, not fine bubbles of air being introduced to produce microfoam. It appears that you are choking off the steam pressure because it took almost TWO MINUTES to froth a small pitcher. Silvia's one-hole tip could have overflowed two 12 ounce pitchers with foam in that timespan.

More steam pressure and slightly deeper will get the "ripping" sound that means microfoam. It's a very small zone only 1-2mm in depth, but it's easy to hear the difference. You're off by about 2mm with not enough steam. Oh, and hold the pitcher still with your left hand steadying it. Remember we're talking about a teenie tiny zone. You'll never hit it if you're jockeying the pitcher around like in the video. :wink:

By the way, do you have one of those three-hole tips installed? If so, I recommend putting it in the drawer, reinstalling the stock tip, and practicing valve wide open with a 20 ounce pitcher and 9 ounces of milk. Once you've got that down, go back to the 12 ounce pitcher and 6 ounces of milk.

DISTRIBUTION: You flattened but did not redistribute. I've never seen a grinder except the Versalab M3 that can produce a perfectly even distribution, so you have to redistribute. Dave's Tamp and Dose Digest is your next stop.

TAMP: Be careful how you're tamping. You are "palming" the tamper knob and it's very easy to cant. Instead grasp the tamper like a doorknob:

From the HB Tamper Roadshow

BREW FIRST: Or at least flush the group first. I prefer the brew first because it's easier to hit the desired temperature, but both are tradeoffs. Part of the sound you heard was steam blasting through the 3-way valve. You'll hear the same sound if you backflush an HX machine without first purging the superheated water. That can't be good for your machine. The first half of that extraction must have been lots of steam "channeling" through. That may explain the very fast onset of the pour.

OlywaDave wrote:Speaking of Latte Art! Anyone see this yet? http://www.ratemyrosetta.com/index.php

Hey, I'm not proud, check out my great looking fern:

Vote for me! Vote for me!

by **jonbauer** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:01 pm

HB,

Thanks for your notes. Yeah, I was steaming all wrong. I learned a lot today. I was only turning on the steamer part way - I have been listening to the CoffeeGeek podcast, and dude said something about not wanting that loud ripping sound, and instead - wanting a low ripping sound - dunno what he meant, but I do know now to turn it all the way on.

No, I just have the stock steam tip installed. After reading everything here and talking to Dave, I made one of the best frothed milks I've seen so far this afternoon. If I were in school, I think I'd get a solid grade on that part now.

I've ordered a naked portafilter, and will read up on the recommended re-distribution stuff later.

I'm planning to post a new video tomorrow morning to show off my updated skillz and learn some more!

- Thanx y'all!
- Jon

by HB on Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:06 pm

jonbauer wrote:...dude said something about not wanting that loud ripping sound, and instead - wanting a low ripping sound - dunno what he meant, but I do know now to turn it all the way on.

Mark is referring to a low rumbling sound that indicates big bubbles. Control the depth and angle, there's (almost) no such thing as too much steam pressure in my book.

jonbauer wrote:That last video is gone now. Poof!

Would you please put it back so others can learn from it? I spent about 45 minutes looking at it and formulating a response. On a board like this, it's better to show one's mistakes than one's triumphs. Thanks...

by **jesawdy** on Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:44 pm

HB wrote:Would you please put it back so others can learn from it? I spent about 45 minutes looking at it and formulating a response. On a board like this, it's better to show one's mistakes than one's triumphs. Thanks...

I'm with Dan on this one. It was very good to see that video, and it was not any different, if not better than when the rest of us started out. I think your original video and the following comments would be very helpful to other's just getting started.

by **jonbauer** on Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:00 pm

Ok, a few things:

1) Yes, I spilled some milk. No use crying.

2) Dave - when I flush the pf, it take a lot of water to force the element to turn on! I had to restart several times since the small cup wasn't cutting it.

3) What's with the drip?

4) I don't see much crema in my espresso! Argh!

5) The Silvia runs out of steam pretty quick! Do you always have to stop and re-start?

6) Take a peek at the picture of the puck at the end. Is it correct to have an indentation from the screw in the grouphead? Does that mean I'm packing too high?

Critique is appreciated. Don't hold back - not that you have! I can take it... Really. :-)

Thank you ALL!

- Jon

by HB on Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:12 pm

I merged your second attempt with your original thread to show the obvious improvement after only one day. That said, let's get to it.

DOSING: Consistent dosage for consistent extractions. By rattling the portafilter on the grinder fork, the dosage will be slightly different for each shot. Let the portafilter fill to the same level each time, tap a couple times if you wish to updose, then continue. If you have an accurate 0.1 gram scale, consider calibrating your routine (also see Exercises for tuning your barista techniques for more ideas). Once you consistently dose to within 0.5 grams, put the scale in the drawer.

DISTRIBUTION: Looked pretty good, but you may wish to try the Stockfleth's move, especially since Rocky's distribution is quite uneven. Better yet, try the sure-fire WDT.

TAMPING: Much better than last time, but I recommend skipping the tap because you increase the risk of breaking the puck-basket adhesion, all for a few loose grounds on the sides. Instead you may wish to try a "Staub tamp."

EXTRACTION: I only viewed the video once, but it seemed like the onset of the pour was very fast. A dwell time of 5-6 seconds is typical; 3-4 seconds for a Silvia says channeling to me (current Silvia owners please correct me if I'm mistaken, it's been a few years since I used one). Tighten the grind and check the dose with a lock-in / remove check. The puck surface should not be grated. As a starting point, try placing a nickel on the puck and see if it is untouched. If so, increase the dosage. If a dime is touched, decrease it. A distinct screen / screw impression in the puck is a good thing because the puck should expand to meet the dispersion screen.

The crema production looked a bit weak and the color seemed light. How did it taste? See Diagnosing the Taste and Appearance of an Extraction for suggestions.

STEAMING: Huge improvement in the quality of the steaming compared to your first video. I didn't cringe even once (yea!). You may wish to introduce more air in the beginning, not in the end as you did. That's why you had airy foam that didn't blend well with the crema. That's great for "white caps", but if you want richer microfoam, stretch early and texturize later.

The stalling of the steam isn't normal. Again, I would have to look again at your video, but I believe the problem is (a) you didn't purge enough headspace; to get a good head of steam going, blast more water out of boiler before starting, and (b) it is critical that the heating element be going BEFORE you start releasing serious steam. That is, force the heating element on by purging a little steam, immerse the tip, pause a couple seconds to let the boiler build up steam but before the heating element goes off, let 'er rip. If the heating element goes off while steaming, you'll lose pace and suffer the stall you saw.

Tricking the heating element on works for all machines below about 1.5 liters; it's an required step for Silvia. See Steaming Performance of the Rancilio Silvia Flash Review:

As discussed in the previous section, surfing addresses Silvia's brew temperature shortcomings. Steaming, on the other hand, requires more than a consistent routine. It requires more intuition and a clear understanding of Silvia's steam "hills and valleys." Below is how you can learn about these ebbs and flows, thereby becoming one with your machine:
Bleed out condensation from the steam wand with a 5-10 second blast into a pitcher.
Cut it off, wait thirty seconds.
Open the valve full blast for 10 seconds onto the counter (or drip tray if you prefer). Observe the amount of force.
Wait 30 seconds, blast again. Continue this for a few minutes, noting the cycling of the boiler.
Refill the boiler, take a break.
Start over, this time focusing on (a) forcing the boiler light to illuminate when you want by bleeding steam, and (b) keeping the light on for as long as you desire while steaming.
Also experiment with longer and shorter delays (15 seconds, 45 seconds, 1 minute). Consider taking notes of your observations.

Now try the same thing, but instead of spraying the countertop, use nine ounces of water in a 20 ounce pitcher. This time you'll focus on creating a "standing wave" or swirling turbulence. The goal is to acquire an intuitive feel for when Silvia is in the perfect steam zone versus the wimpy steam zone. It isn't easy to froth microfoam with wimpy steam. You'll get a lot of medium-sized bubbles that won't break when you thunk the pitcher on the countertop. The perfect steam zone also carries a caveat: Too much in too small a pitcher and you'll paint the walls (no joking, I've done it more than once). I suggest nine ounces of milk/water and a 20 ounce pitcher until you have a good feel for the cycles I'm talking about. Then you should try a twelve ounce pitcher and a single-sized amount of milk, say six ounces.

The thunking and swirling looked good. You might try foaming a little less and swirling more aggressively to "polish" the top. Place the pitcher firmly against the countertop and move it in a circular motion. You won't spill that way and will be able to get the milk to swirl up an inch or two along the sides. It should look like thick white paint when you're swirling if you've microfoamed correctly.

DRIPPING: What can I say? Confirm the gasket is squeaky clean (scrub, scrub) and torque it on tighter. The machine is too new for the gasket to already be hardened. Gaskets last a year or two, longer if you cycle the machine off when not in use and don't over torque the portafilter.

Nice progress!

by **OlywaDave** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:37 pm

jonbauer wrote:
Ok, a few things:

1) Yes, I spilled some milk. No use crying.

Yup no worries...

jonbauer wrote:2) Dave - when I flush the pf, it take a lot of water to force the element to turn on! I had to restart several times since the small cup wasn't cutting it.

We take our drinking building steps in a little bit different order. There isn't really a wrong or right, just which works better for you or the end user. You know.

I steam before I prepare the shot so I can have the freshest shot vs. freshest milk. After steaming the boiler is a much hotter temperature than you should extract a shot at and so that is why I run a flush my Silvia's group/boiler to drop the boiler temp closer to extraction temps. My making the element light kick on is peace of mind that when it goes off I am at a decent shot temperature.

jonbauer wrote:3) What's with the drip?

Yeah I had problems with a drip at times as well. Tighten the PF and you should be fine. Eventually the gasket will seat properly against the basket.

jonbauer wrote:4) I don't see much crema in my espresso! Argh!

True... Can't explain that.
Beans fresh? Like under a week old? The shots looked stringy a bit which may be the beans. If you are sure beans aren't the culprit mess with the grind vs tamp ratio. Someone else may provide better insight here.

jonbauer wrote:5) The Silvia runs out of steam pretty quick! Do you always have to stop and re-start?

Well I do but my model is older too, so my advice there might be dated. Just make sure it isn't dumping hot water into your milk. If it is all steam, it is all good.

jonbauer wrote:6) Take a peek at the picture of the puck at the end. Is it correct to have an indentation from the screw in the grouphead? Does that mean I'm packing too high?

I might get railed for this but I never worried too much about that with Silvia. However this could have something to do with the lack of crema... possibly. Without being there (video is the next best thing) it is difficult to say, but I would say experiment til youu get what you want.

jonbauer wrote:Critique is appreciated. Don't hold back - not that you have! I can take it... Really.

Thank you ALL!

- Jon

Damn Jon! BIG improvements already as Dan said too. You'll have 'er down in no time. It took me a couple solid weeks of concentrated effort too. You seem to have the right attitude and I know you'll be pullin great shot with the best of them. just your neighbors at Ritual.

Sorry I didn't post my pics. We were out of power still Friday, Saturday ended up being a holiday shopping day with the girlfriend then her company party at Batdorf & Bronson, Sunday I bottled 15 gallons of hard cider, shopped again, then another get together that night! I did make espresso but I made then drank. Man the holidays are always so crazy.

Dave

by **gunman45** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:01 pm

Will just throw in my two-cents worth.

I have had my Rancilio Silvia/Rocky Combo for a little over a year. I have just upgraded to the Mini (just because I am lousy at judging quantity) and purchased a bunch of stuff today from Espressoparts.com to expand my horizons. I make mostly milk based drinks and the Silvia is a great steam maker. My ritual is as follows:

1) Fill pitcher with milk and leave in refrigerator.
2) Flush portafilter into shot glasses until it sounds like the boiler light is about to come on (I am used to the sound it makes and I can shut it off a second or so before the light, which does comes on).
3) Wipe inside of portafilter clean, dose, tamp, polish and insert.
4) Dump water from shot glasses into steam wand flush container and position under portafilter.
5) When boiler light extinguishes (I will install a PID this week), pull shot and turn on the steam switch at the same time (here I have a count-down timer set at 1:30 which I start)
6) After shot (25-30 sec), purge steam wand of all water.
7) While waiting for the count down I clean up the portafilter.
8) When timer hits 0:00, second purge of all water (8-10 seconds) and then I barley submerge the wand into the milk to start the foaming process. It should not even look like foam; it should look like dull milk (no shine, no big bubbles).
9) When temp reaches 100, I completely submerge the wand into the milk.
10) Dump hot water from my latte mug and pour in the double shot.
11) Clean shot glasses.
12) When milk reaches 150, I shut it off and clean the wand.
13) Group head clean up, etc.

My Latte mug is clear and it is hard to tell that I have foam until I pour it into that mug at which time I find that I have to let the milk pitcher settle for a couple of seconds because of the quantity of foam...

Foam, not a problem, but even after a year my dose/tamp needs work.........sigh!

Forgot to mention, the brew light is on the whole time during the steaming process.

My beans are the culprit (over a 10 days old). That and I can never, ever, regardless of what I try get the same quantity into the portafilter (hence the Mazzer Mini with Doser).

by **OlywaDave** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:02 pm

Dan I have to say the HB forums are the best. It is a great place where everyone can toss away their egos and help folks who are passionate about coffee make great espresso.

Jon, Dan is right about the videos, if you are comfortable with it keep them up so that others who may be a little more introverted than yourself can learn too. But then make sure you post your triumphs too, cuz HBer's are all about the triumphs.

by **OlywaDave** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:20 pm

So does everyone steam milk after pouring a shot??? Man I am out of the loop eh?

My thought behind steaming before my shot is that I don't want my freshly extracted espresso sitting there 2 minutes or so as I steam and texture milk. In my opinion the Silvia user is far better off steaming, keeping the pitcher somewhere warm (on top of Silvia), and swirling it now and again to prevent foam separation.

by **RapidCoffee** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:12 pm

OlywaDave wrote:So does everyone steam milk after pouring a shot??? Man I am out of the loop eh?

My thought behind steaming before my shot is that I don't want my freshly extracted espresso sitting there 2 minutes or so as I steam and texture milk. In my opinion the Silvia user is far better off steaming, keeping the pitcher somewhere warm (on top of Silvia), and swirling it now and again to prevent foam separation.

Hi Dave. You're not out of the loop; single boilers just put you in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Steam first and temperature stability during espresso extraction degrades. Pull the shot first and the espresso sits waiting while your boiler gets up to steam temperature for frothing. That's why I'm a proponent of HX machines (or DBs) for milk-based espresso drinks.
________
John


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My attempt - Silvia and Rocky, the video - HELP NEEDED!

My attempt - Part Deux (the sequel) - Lady Silvia & Sir Rock

My ritual