Well after a few years at this espresso business I have to admit I still suck at the milk frothing part. I've read everything there is to read, I've watched every youtube video and I've watched every barista in the city do it with annoying simplicity and yet I still can't get it right. My problem is separation. I can get what looks like nice micro foam but it's only ever skin deep. After the first 3 sips it's just hot milk after that. Surely this means I'm not incorporating the air properly after stretching. I just purchased 2 toroid pitchers (small and medium) in the hopes that this would help but it hasn't. I have a bit better luck when I'm steaming enough for a large-ish latte but caps are nearly impossible. My old pitcher was the kind that had a straight sloped top and bottom meeting in the center at about a 20 degree angle. Now I have the Toroids. I know exactly how I'm supposed to be doing this but I just can't seem to get it right with small amounts of milk. Maybe I should have bought the regular straight walled pitchers. I'm using the right amount of milk for a given jug, (under half full.) I'm using 2% milk (although I've never tried a different brand, maybe I should). I stretch until about 90-100 degrees and then mix. I have a 2 hole tip and I keeps my jugs in the freezer.

I should also note that I can get wonderful, picture perfect, creamy micro foam with soap and water. However it tastes awful.

It sounds like you've already tried most of the usual suggestions, so I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Have you tried frothing on another machine? Your machine should be more than good enough to steam milk properly, but just to rule out the possibility that there's something with weird about the machine, maybe you should try another commercial or prosumer machine.

Maybe you can post a video of an attempt at frothing and we can try to spot problems. Other than that, I don't see any obvious ways to improve things.

I have the exact same problem... and I have done everything too to try to fix this... it's very annoying.
So much so that I just posted about it 3 days ago here:

Milk not thick and creamy

And I notice that I have the same machine you do. Just got it a month ago... but I am not a newbie.

My conclusion at this point is the milk I use. I normally use whole organic milk from my local grocer... but I was going to try to get my hands on some fresh dairy milk to see if it made the difference.

Anyone have any idea's?

Sorry to jump in with another "me too" but, me too. The top inch of steamed milk is completely porcelain-smooth bubble-free micro foam, everything else is hot milk. I have a 4.5L boiler in my 1-group Brasilia and a 12L boiler in my 2-group Laranzato so it's not a boiler size issue.

Since I've been struggling with this for a few years, I've picked up a few 'tips', hilarious pun intended.

1.) I do better with smaller pitchers (8-12oz) 1/3 to 1/2 full (or empty, depending on your life outlook)
2.) I do better with tips that have holes that point out at about a 45 degree angle as opposed to ones that point mostly downward.
3.) I do better with smaller-holed tips.

If you haven't tried different steam tips, I suggest you do. It may not work for everyone, but a different tip may better suit your steaming style.

The problem is mainly with small amounts of milk but I wouldn't rate my latte sized steaming as world class either. I'm going to make a 1 hole tip out of an acorn nut and see if that helps by increasing the amount of time I have to work with. BTW does anyone know the thread size of the steam wand tip for a Giotto Evo? I want to pick one up on the way home tonight.

Please update to let us know if this new acorn tip helps...

oralia80 wrote:I have the exact same problem... and I have done everything too to try to fix this... it's very annoying.
So much so that I just posted about it 3 days ago here:

Milk not thick and creamy

And I notice that I have the same machine you do. Just got it a month ago... but I am not a newbie.

My conclusion at this point is the milk I use. I normally use whole organic milk from my local grocer... but I was going to try to get my hands on some fresh dairy milk to see if it made the difference.

Anyone have any idea's?

Very interesting that you have the same machine as I do and have the exact same problem. I tend to suspect human error more than anything but perhaps these machines require a certain technique. I'm going to try some different milk brands as well as whole milk and see what happens. Failing that I'll try a single hole.

Yeah, and like you said... it's frustrating to see how seemingly effortless it is for others.

In my other thread I mentioned that MadCap in Grand Rapids is sourcing their milk from a local dairy... it's far thicker than standard whole milk. They literally shake it to incorporate the cream which is at the top. I am still curious to see if it's a milk issue.

I can tell you that steaming ease-ability is machine dependent. For example I steam effortlessly with Cremina and PVL with tons of micro-foam to the bottom of pitcher, but steaming with GS/3 needs much more work and results are usually not as good...

Perhaps a few experiments to troubleshoot? One way would be to

1. Steam milk as normal and pour it into a glass (not porcelain). What does it look like? Does it separate over time or is there a clearly defined top layer and bottom layer to begin with? How thick?

2. Try putting the tip of the steam wand a bit closer to the surface than normal (pull in bit more air). Pour into a glass and observe / taste. If there is now poor quality foam on top the rest of the milk, is the milk still watery below the top layer?