As my La Pavoni quietly waits in pieces in a box in my office (I'm installing a PID controller on it - long story), I had some time to start thinking about my lattes and their flavor (or maybe lack thereof I should say).

While my shots of espresso are coming along pretty well (getting everything dialed in), I'm still having trouble when it comes to getting a lot of flavor out of my milk based drinks (admittedly, it's not something I drink all that often). After reading a couple of threads on steaming milk for Latte Art, I'm left wondering exactly how my lattes (or a good quality caffe latte) should taste.

I guess my question is sort of this:

Without adding sugar, how sweet can a latte end up (if you only are using a shot of espresso and milk). The reason I ask is because normally when I froth / steam the milk, I use about 80% half & half (or sometimes whole milk) and then about 10% Coffee Mate Italian sweet creme. Let me tell ya, that Coffee Mate Italian sweet creme does the trick. It produces a beautifully sweet flavor to my lattes that is almost like drinking a candy bar when you are done (and moreover, very difficult to duplicate if you don't use the Coffee Mate). However, I do want to stop using the Coffee Mate product, since it has a lot of chemicals in it and I tend to be a bit allergic to it I think.

So what I'm wondering is this: if you pull a really great (i.e. tasty / sweet) shot of espresso, then froth the milk properly (which is something I'm still working on, admittedly), then will the resulting latte have a naturally sweet flavor? Or do most people add sugar to bring the final taste up? I've even read a few people add a spoonful of sugar prior to frothing the milk (which I, myself, have also done).

Additionally (and this is something I am going to test here pretty soon myself - once my machine is back together), I have read that properly steamed / frothed milk should have a sweet taste to it. Is that correct? I guess I have only really ever frothed half & half and never really tasted the result without the coffee part in there (which is something I should do).

So if you pull a great shot, really know what you are doing as far as steaming / frothing milk - then pour a beautiful latte art into the cup - does it just naturally have a sweet flavor to it (when everything is done just right)? Or does it have more of an un-sweet "coffee with milk" flavor? I guess I should start trying lattes from different coffee shops so I can get a handle on what I'm shooting for here.

Any input / comments would be welcome.

Ray

It's hard to tell on the internet, but,

unless you like super-sweet dessert(which the one as you described supersweet candy) or lets say your hot chocolate very sweet, a nice shot a milk not over-steam will be sweet enough. The base is really the espresso.

Milk naturally has about 13g of sugar per 8oz serving. When properly steamed (not bubbly and around 140-150 degrees) this is perfect IMO. I think half and half is a little too heavy for milk based drinks unless you don't really like coffee and you are just wanting to hide the flavor. Try whole milk. There is a reason why it is the standard for milk based drinks. It compliments the coffee well without muting the flavor, given you don't use a ton of milk. 2%,1%, and skim, will taste bland and watery. Try whole milk and even try REDUCING the amount of milk you use. This will let the coffee stand out more and your drink will be more flavorful. I drink a competition cappuccino every morning which is a double shot and about 3 ounces of milk. A macchiato (double shot and about an ounce of milk) other times. Milk should be a back drop or canvas for a beautifully pulled shot, not a cover up. So try whole milk and maybe less milk and then if you still want it, a teaspoon of sugar. Don't feel bad if you need sugar. Everyone's taste is different, and you should make it how you like it.

RayJohns wrote:...normally when I froth / steam the milk, I use about 80% half & half ... and then about 10% Coffee Mate Italian sweet creme.

Dude, you don't mess around! I just looked up nutritional info on the coffeemate website, and it's basically flavored sugar. Yes, properly steamed milk is naturally sweet. But you will not get the same results from milk as you do from your mixture of cream and sugar.

HB wrote:Absolutely! When I properly steam six ounces of milk, it tastes like I added 1/2 teaspoon of sugar to it. If I goof by overheating it, the milk tastes like it was heated in a microwave.

Okay, thanks Dan. I will have to start working on my milk steaming. I've been so busy with just shots of espresso, I don't think I have really paid enough attention.

What's your (or everyone's) view regarding using Half & Half vs. just whole milk? Is there anything to be gained? When I make sauces or something which calls for milk (such as breads, etc.), I will generally use Half & Half, since it has a higher fat content. Does that same idea apply to coffee / lattes or am I doing something which is counter productive to flavor and/or latte art?

Ray

jonny wrote:Milk naturally has about 13g of sugar per 8oz serving. When properly steamed (not bubbly and around 140-150 degrees) this is perfect IMO. I think half and half is a little too heavy for milk based drinks unless you don't really like coffee and you are just wanting to hide the flavor. Try whole milk. There is a reason why it is the standard for milk based drinks. It compliments the coffee well without muting the flavor, given you don't use a ton of milk. 2%,1%, and skim, will taste bland and watery. Try whole milk and even try REDUCING the amount of milk you use. This will let the coffee stand out more and your drink will be more flavorful. I drink a competition cappuccino every morning which is a double shot and about 3 ounces of milk. A macchiato (double shot and about an ounce of milk) other times. Milk should be a back drop or canvas for a beautifully pulled shot, not a cover up. So try whole milk and maybe less milk and then if you still want it, a teaspoon of sugar. Don't feel bad if you need sugar. Everyone's taste is different, and you should make it how you like it.

Great information! Thanks very much. I feel like I know what I'm aiming for now. I love espresso macchiatos and have even gotten my "not to fond of straight espresso" drinking them. I usually make them with 30 ml espresso and 30 ml steamed milk (or in this case, half & half).

I'm definitely going to spend some time working on just steaming whole milk and see what sort of flavor and texture results I end up with.

Ray

RapidCoffee wrote:Dude, you don't mess around! I just looked up nutritional info on the coffeemate website, and it's basically flavored sugar. Yes, properly steamed milk is naturally sweet. But you will not get the same results from milk as you do from your mixture of cream and sugar.

Yeah, it's very, very sweet stuff

Ray

itl take some time to getting the frothing technique down (stretching, swirling) there are tons of videos on it, try them out and see which one works best for you.
proper steaming unlocks the sugars, the key is not to take it too hot remember. I personally don't steam it hotter than 150, it destroys the sugars and lose all hope for sweetness.
And its true, when done right you will swear it has sugar.

Sweetness is something that is very subjective.

I know it seems like it seems like you are more advanced if you drink milk-espresso drinks without adding sugar, but that is definitely not my preference at all.

This is especially true (for me) as the milk to espresso ratio increases. To me a double espresso has sweetness and flavor. Steamed milk, no matter how perfect, tastes OK - but the two together (again, no matter how perfect) just does not appeal to my taste buds.

I like my cappuccinos and lattes sweet. Not candy sweet, but definitely more sweetness than steamed milk.

And other than people who post about espresso on the internet, I personally don't know anyone that doesn'y add sugar to their latte or cappuccino.

So don't feel like you shouldn't be adding sugar - its ok.