Keeping used coffee in the portafilter - Page 2

by **mitch236** on Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:08 pm

BradyButler wrote:You know, I often wonder why we don't have blind portafilters with tiny holes drilled in them for this purpose. It would do the same thing, only without the cleanliness issues. Maybe might take the place of the morning "warm up shots" and reduce coffee waste. Anyone see a downside?

The only downside I see is you should use the brew basket to keep that warm too so the blind basket wouldn't work. I've thought about creating a fake puck that would add the back pressure and then you would just pop it out prior to brewing but I couldn't come up with anything that works. But how much does an occasional throw away really cost? If you are brewing 10 shots an hour leaving the old puck in for 5-10 minutes shouldn't be too bad. Before I would pull the next shot I would run water through the old puck for a few seconds then knock it out and wipe the basket clean.

by **CoffeeOwl** on Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:48 pm

cannonfodder wrote:interesting. You are working for idiots. Sorry.

+1

ptervin wrote:Just don't go throw your new found weight around; remember, you work for them. Approach the topic, off shift, and work into it or you may find yourself the former barista.

+1

by **another_jim** on Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:30 pm

BradyButler wrote:You know, I often wonder why we don't have blind portafilters with tiny holes drilled in them for this purpose. It would do the same thing, only without the cleanliness issues. Maybe might take the place of the morning "warm up shots" and reduce coffee waste. Anyone see a downside?

As Mitch has said, this is an open problem. A hole that is small enough to restrict the flow enough can get fouled. It took Greg Scace a while to come up with a system that worked reliably for the thermofilter; and a basket that uses the same restriction technology, but without the sensors, would be the best ready made solution for a "flush restrictor." (anybody listening?)

I agree about the sanitary issue, but there is an odd secondary cleaning effect to the spent puck: If you don't wipe the shower head clean with a rag after each shot, even if you flush it with water, it will retain water insoluble oils that turn rancid when they get baked on the hot screen. Flushing with the puck dissolves these, since the brewed coffee acts as a solvent, while flushing with water does not. So the spent puck technique means you don't need to wipe the screen, but just use a quick cleaning flush ahead of each shot, after knocking out the spent puck.

by **cafeIKE** on Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:48 pm

I just pulled a shot of Caffe Fresco Bello [prior to reading Jim's post] that is unlike any in the previous two pounds.
Wine, tobacco and berry flavors. :shock:

I've always left the puck in the group as IMO [no blind test], drying the group generates 'a staleness.' Even after a couple hours, my pucks typically have a small puddle.

Previously, I'd always scrubbed the screen with the Pallo while running the ~5 second cleaning / warming flush before locking the PF.

This time, I ran the warming flush on the old puck, knocked, built, scrub & flush for a second or two. Shot temperature appears same ±0.5°F on Eric's adapter.

Jim, thanks for the genesis of the 'puck in' history. This could be game changing.

by **Bob_McBob** on Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:22 pm

cafeIKE wrote:I've always left the puck in the group as IMO [no blind test], drying the group generates 'a staleness.' Even after a couple hours, my pucks typically have a small puddle.

After two hours baking in my Duetto when I occasionally forget it, the puck is bone dry and has to be scrubbed out of the basket. I usually have to empty the knockbox right away because it smells so bad. I also have to do a fair bit of backflushing, sometimes even with detergent to remove the taste.

by **BradyButler** on Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:14 pm

another_jim wrote:As Mitch has said, this is an open problem. A hole that is small enough to restrict the flow enough can get fouled. It took Greg Scace a while to come up with a system that worked reliably for the thermofilter; and a basket that uses the same restriction technology, but without the sensors, would be the best ready made solution for a "flush restrictor." (anybody listening?)

Duly noted. I suspect that the precision required wouldn't be quite as much as on the Scace, but that could definitely be an issue.

another_jim wrote:I agree about the sanitary issue, but there is an odd secondary cleaning effect to the spent puck: If you don't wipe the shower head clean with a rag after each shot, even if you flush it with water, it will retain water insoluble oils that turn rancid when they get baked on the hot screen. Flushing with the puck dissolves these, since the brewed coffee acts as a solvent, while flushing with water does not. So the spent puck technique means you don't need to wipe the screen, but just use a quick cleaning flush ahead of each shot, after knocking out the spent puck.

That's an interesting thought, but seems pretty dubious if you ask me. Even if you do accept the idea that you can clean coffee residue with coffee oil (which seems to be up for discussion) the premise there is that you are using fresh coffee oils as a solvent. In the case of a spent puck the oils are not fresh and there isn't a large quantity of them available. I'm sure not going to recommend backflushing with an old puck as the way to a cleaner group. (I could have sworn there was a "barfing" smiley over there...)

by **another_jim** on Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:16 pm

I agree, and I'm not keeping spent pucks in my machine.

But I do clean off the screen with a rag after every shot to beat the "second shot effect" (the second shot being always better than the first after a long rest). This effect is not only due to temperature, but also because making coffee clears out the cooked on gunk left over from the previous shot, and the coffee traces from an immediately previous shot are not cooked, and so not obnoxious.

The gold standard for any flushing and cleaning regime is that it gets the first shot after an idle period to taste as good as the second.

IMO, any SOP that does this is good. On the right group and the right setting, a spent puck procedure may work. For instance, an E61 group idles about 20F hotter than an LM, and at home, groups idle for hours, while in a store they idle for minutes. So leaving a puck in a store LM may work well, while leaving it in a home E61 may not. Brady is a far better judge of the first scenario than I am; and if he says wiping down is better; I would do it if I ever had to pull a shift behind the counter!

by **cafeIKE** on Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:54 pm

another_jim wrote:But I do clean off the screen with a rag after every shot

Not being smart, but what about the other side of the screen?

another_jim wrote:For instance, an E61 group idles about 20F hotter than an LM

e61 DB idles about 193°F and requires a warming flush to brew @ ~199°F. The HX idles @ 195°F.

Every so often I run a trial where I brush clean and backflush the group to see if shots pulled on ~2hr intervals improve. In every case, I always detect a 'licking a penny taste' Now this could be a genetic sensitivity as I've never been able to eat yoghurt without detecting the same taste. Regardless of how much sugar, flavor, fruit, it's always unpleasant.

For the rest of the week, I'll try leaving the backflush filter in place so the group is kept wet.

by **mitch236** on Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:08 pm

I'm a morning warrior but my daily routine is after I finish brewing my last cup, I remove the pf, turn on the brew group, run a steel brush across the screen then put the blind basket and backflush while knocking out the puck. Then I turn off the brew group, remove the blind pf and then rinse the brew basket under the brew water until the water runs clear leaving the pf in place.

I start every day by tossing the first two shots, usually keeping the third and beyond for the morning. When I remove the pf I run a very short blast of brew water to rinse the screen then right before putting the loaded pf back in, I do a three second warming rinse.

Once a week I do the full on cleaning with Puro.

I haven't been wiping the screen between shots but maybe I should start!


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