z0h wrote:totally agree- I should have been more clear that I was being a bit sarcastic about the scientific study comment.

That would not be read as a joke here. Several of our regulars are scientists or engineers, and others also have backgrounds in experimental controls. There have been several controlled test comparisons reported here by them.

Marshall wrote:That would not be read as a joke here. Several of our regulars are scientists or engineers, and others also have backgrounds in experimental controls. There have been several controlled test comparisons reported here by them.

yes I know- I too am a scientist (PhD in biochemistry/biophysics, postdocs in physical chemistry, x-ray crystallography/protein structure-function, many many years of experience in academic and industrial settings, blah blah blah) I'm also a professional chef with wide food experience, and I'm sorry that this wouldn't be appreciated. It underscores the importance and seriousness that some place on things like the difference between a temperature change of 1F vs. 1C when it comes to coffee.

I for one find many of these studies absolutely hilarious (even the ones that are truly valid scientific studies!) and would love to see more of them. I love it.

Jasonian wrote:Next time you're there, have them pull a naked PF this way, and watch what happens.

I am not a fan of the no-distribution method. I've experimented with it quite a bit, long before it become a curious phenomenon. While I've had several results that tasted fine, the pours were atrocious, regardless of how well the distributing-dosing worked out. I simply cannot in good conscience consider it an honest representation of that coffee when the extraction is so uneven, regardless of how pleasant the results may be.

R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

We either let the coffee be itself, or we don't. We either try to be as honest as possible, or we focus only on the morality of "taste".. which is hardly a complete morality at all, in my book.

Just my $.02.

Jason,

I really did not want to have to respond to this, but it has grown tiresome. You say that you want to build a coffee community, but then you do things like this. I could forgive the assumption that my espresso would pull atrociously uneven with no distribution, even in the face of Nicolas witnessing our results and reporting the opposite. However, when you try to accuse me, and my coworkers of being disrespectful to the coffee you cross the line.

Whether you want to believe it or not I have a great deal of respect, and passion for coffee. Your attempts to take a moral high-ground with rhetoric are unnecessary and unproductive. If you want to treat using a taste test barometer as the coffee equivalent to moral relativity then be my guest. I would however appreciate it if you refrained from making naive Kantian assumptions. How many grinders, and espresso machines have you tested redistribution vs no redistribution on? As Mike stated before we did not rush to conclusions about our change in espresso preparation. I also do not condemn or discourage the use of redistribution for preparing espresso. I encourage people to try different methods and see what works best for them. I was also very skeptical of the Anfim at first because of what I presume you would call doughnut extractions (extraction around edge with no flow in the middle) but within a few days, I had adjusted to the difference and was getting even flows again. Although I think you should at least recognize you are not the arbiter of coffee morality. If you are, then it would be greatly appreciated if you could put into print the commandments of coffee honesty so that we may all come into accordance.

I also find it rather amusing that you only weighed in on this thread after we had been mentioned and decided only to comment in our direction, since the thread was started by Marshall out of observation at the WRBC. He noted that all of the top 3 did not redistribute the coffee with their hands after dosing. I could also note that the two past WBC champs, Stephen Morissey, and James Hoffman also did not redistribute their coffee. Not to mention Chris Baca, Kyle Glanville, Pete Licata, and Drew Catlin from last year's USBC finals. Are they all also disrespectful to the coffee?

Now that I responded to how your post came across I will address what I hope you were trying to say;

Jason,

thanks for sharing your experiences with naked extractions and no redistribution. We too have done some experiments with this and have had different results. However if I was noticing that we were having uneven extractions I would have to agree with you that this is probably not the best method for preparing espresso. While on occasion one may get lucky and have an unevenly extracted shot that tastes good, my assumption would be this is rather unreliable and that most shots prepared in this way would not taste good.


to the rest of everyone reading this thread I apologize.

further to my earlier post about my experiences with no redistribution, due to 14gms in my PF basket being less than full and so precluding any levelling or redistribution - i have made a quick and dirty video of my pouring an espresso with my naked PF - its not the best camera work or filming but i think it does demonstrate that its possible to achieve a reasonable coffee even as a rank amateur without redistribution.

(i have only been using a machine for a couple of weeks, all my previous experience was with stove tops.)

galumay wrote:..... i think it does demonstrate that its possible to achieve a reasonable coffee even as a rank amateur without redistribution. (i have only been using a machine for a couple of weeks, all my previous experience was with stove tops.)

Your statement only proves that, FOR YOU, on your machine, after two weeks' experience with making "real" espresso, using the coffee you are currently using, ground on your grinder, that you can produce a coffee that is, in your words, "reasonable." To many people, "reasonable" is a shot that doesn't have to be spat out into the sink (or onto the floor, whichever is closer). My reasonable shot may be better than anything you have ever tasted.

I think the underlying question to pose to you is, can you make a better shot WITH distribution?
If "yes" they why aren't you doing it.
If "no," why not, and how do you know?

Your machine appears to not have a brew pressure gauge nor a boiler pressure gage or temperature readout. The point is that there are many variables at work here. As I mentioned previously in this thread, what works on one machine in one situation may not work on another.

Easy, Randy

In defense of galumay :

On my machineS with my grinderS, over the yearS many have exclaimed
"Wow! That's the best shot I've ever tasted."
No distribution or tamping what-so-ever. Nada!

Sometimes, if I'm feeling particularly puckish, I'll make them a real sinker with all the tapping, twiddling and falderal they came with.

In the immortal [paraphrased] words of Psyd :
If it works for you, do it. Don't presume that it's at all un/necessary.

Randy G. wrote:I think the underlying question to pose to you is, can you make a better shot WITH distribution?
If "yes" then why aren't you doing it.

This strikes to the heart of the matter. For the home barista, taking a few extra seconds in pursuit of the godshot is time well spent. At this point in my espresso journey, with a world-class grinder and a prosumer espresso machine, I can easily pull a good shot with minimal fuss. But I do not begrudge the few seconds it takes to carefully distribute, level, and tamp prior to pulling the shot. Part of the reward is the knowledge that I've done my best to get the most out of the coffee.

galumay wrote:further to my earlier post about my experiences with no redistribution, due to 14gms in my PF basket being less than full and so precluding any levelling or redistribution - i have made a quick and dirty video of my pouring an espresso with my naked PF - its not the best camera work or filming but i think it does demonstrate that its possible to achieve a reasonable coffee even as a rank amateur without redistribution.

(i have only been using a machine for a couple of weeks, all my previous experience was with stove tops.)

I hope you won't take offense at some constructive criticism. This is nice work for only two weeks, and you're clearly on the right track. But that would be a sink shot in my kitchen. Early blonding, even though cut short at 20 seconds and 35ml, with a pale froth atop the crema that suggests stale beans.



Not a great argument for the no-distribution approach.

Randy G. wrote:I think the underlying question to pose to you is, can you make a better shot WITH distribution?
If "yes" they why aren't you doing it.
If "no," why not, and how do you know?

as explained, redistribution is not an option due to basket size, 14gms is less than full.

if redistribution isnt needed to make a coffee good enough to win a regional barista championship then i can probably learn to live without it!

RapidCoffee wrote:I hope you won't take offense at some constructive criticism. This is nice work for only two weeks, and you're clearly on the right track. But that would be a sink shot in my kitchen. Early blonding, even though cut short at 20 seconds and 35ml, with a pale froth atop the crema that suggests stale beans.

no offense, thanks for the feedback. the issues you mention though are not a reflection of lack of redistribution though, i can easily extend the length of the pour beyond the 22 secs it took with minor adjustments to tamping pressure or grind fineness. there is no "pale froth" atop the crema, the beans are not stale, it may be an artifact of the light conditions when filming?

a 14gm, 35ml, 22 sec pour is certainly within the technical specifications for an espresso, it tastes fantastic and is a quality of espresso i have rarely received in a cafe - thats got me pretty happy after only 2 weeks and while i realise there is always room for improvement i dont want to get obsessed with the technical aspects of coffee making and lose sight of the main purpose of making it - to drink it!

galumay wrote:a 14gm, 35ml, 22 sec pour is certainly within the technical specifications for an espresso, it tastes fantastic and is a quality of espresso i have rarely received in a cafe

That is one awful looking shot -- grind finer, a lot finer, and taste again. As far as leveling, probably you don't need it, since any channeling on that thing was straight down the middle.