Increasing sweetness in espresso extraction
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bentkalec
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 9 years ago
After extensive reading on this site as well as many others, combined with a few months of making coffee at home, I thought I would bite the bullet and ask a fairly loaded question...
In regards to espresso extraction and constantly searching for a sweeter cup, is it possible to continuously keep reducing dose and fining up grind to increase sweetness, whilst maintaining a consistent flow? Or do you eventually hit a brick wall where no more sweetness can be developed? Is there a good way to tell when the limit has been reached? And if the sweetness at this level is still less than hoped for, is a different bean? Obviously beans play a large role, as does equipment. Given I don't have a seasoned palate I cannot distinguish as many flavours as I would like, but I feel I have rid the shot of sourness and bitterness. I can produce something quite drinkable and seemingly well balanced.
I am using a Breville 800ES with a new Smart Grinder Pro. However, beans are great quality, the machine is clean and methods are consistent. If I have revealed ignorance I apologise, but until we learn, we are all ignorant I suppose...
Thank you very much in advance,
Ben
In regards to espresso extraction and constantly searching for a sweeter cup, is it possible to continuously keep reducing dose and fining up grind to increase sweetness, whilst maintaining a consistent flow? Or do you eventually hit a brick wall where no more sweetness can be developed? Is there a good way to tell when the limit has been reached? And if the sweetness at this level is still less than hoped for, is a different bean? Obviously beans play a large role, as does equipment. Given I don't have a seasoned palate I cannot distinguish as many flavours as I would like, but I feel I have rid the shot of sourness and bitterness. I can produce something quite drinkable and seemingly well balanced.
I am using a Breville 800ES with a new Smart Grinder Pro. However, beans are great quality, the machine is clean and methods are consistent. If I have revealed ignorance I apologise, but until we learn, we are all ignorant I suppose...
Thank you very much in advance,
Ben
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boar_d_laze
- Posts: 2058
- Joined: 17 years ago
No.bentkalec wrote:In regards to espresso extraction and constantly searching for a sweeter cup, is it possible to continuously keep reducing dose and fining up grind to increase sweetness, whilst maintaining a consistent flow?
Yes.Or do you eventually hit a brick wall where no more sweetness can be developed?
The coffee becomes over extracted and tastes bitter.Is there a good way to tell when the limit has been reached?
The green bean and its roast have a lot to do with sweetness in the cup. So does freshness. Coffee which is too fresh post-roast, will taste harsh, with the sweetness masked; while coffee which is too stale will lose its sweetness.And if the sweetness at this level is still less than hoped for, is a different bean?
Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator
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drgary
- Team HB
- Posts: 14393
- Joined: 14 years ago
Like Rich, I believe sweetness is partly related to the original coffee, its roast and its being aged to peak and not beyond.
I also think of temperature. A good way to play with this, with more control, is to get to know a coffee by brewing in an Aeropress (good insulation) with hot water measured to the degree. Don't steep too long. This will help you find the best temperature. You can replicate that temperature as best you can in your espresso machine.
Also I don't use a rule to grind fine to get sweet shots. I think of finer/lower dose as lower intensity and coarser/higher dose as higher intensity. If you've hit the right temperature you might find that updosing and coarser grind works well for a particular coffee.
I also have the advantage of pulling most of my espresso on lever machines. The declining pressure of a spring lever or the emulation of that on a manual lever reduce the likelihood of overextraction as you reduce pressure toward the end of the pull. With a pump machine make sure you stop the shot early enough that you're not tasting what's overextracted (bitterness and watery) toward the end.
I also think of temperature. A good way to play with this, with more control, is to get to know a coffee by brewing in an Aeropress (good insulation) with hot water measured to the degree. Don't steep too long. This will help you find the best temperature. You can replicate that temperature as best you can in your espresso machine.
Also I don't use a rule to grind fine to get sweet shots. I think of finer/lower dose as lower intensity and coarser/higher dose as higher intensity. If you've hit the right temperature you might find that updosing and coarser grind works well for a particular coffee.
I also have the advantage of pulling most of my espresso on lever machines. The declining pressure of a spring lever or the emulation of that on a manual lever reduce the likelihood of overextraction as you reduce pressure toward the end of the pull. With a pump machine make sure you stop the shot early enough that you're not tasting what's overextracted (bitterness and watery) toward the end.
Gary
LMWDP#308
What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!
LMWDP#308
What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!
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malachi
- Posts: 2695
- Joined: 19 years ago
Temperature frequently has more impact than particle size or dose.
What's in the cup is what matters.
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another_jim
- Team HB
- Posts: 13961
- Joined: 19 years ago
The response of taste to grind level depends on three things:
The coffee: Are you going to get cocoa, tobacco, savory, or something else at finer grinds? This will interact with the perception of sweetness. This is where cupping the coffee and knowing what flavors are available is important
The roast level:With medium roasts that have slow extracting and sweet caramels, finer grind/lower dose usually will sweeten things up; but you will also hit a wall. With darker roasts, finer grinds will get bitter, since the caramals are less sweet; with lighter roasts, finer grinds will just taste blander, since the sweetness is in sugars which dissolve fast.
Roast profile: Having new controls is a sometimes a dangerous thing. Now , with much improved roaster controls and measuring gear, roasters are trying out new things, stalling the roast at some places, speeding up at others. This in tidelf is a good thing. Talking about how brilliant this all is, rather than actually cupping the results, creates some very odd results. I know these odd profiles produce some anomalous, or at least unexpected, responses to dose and grind changes. I don't know enough yet to be able to characterize the canonical correlation between profiles and brewing variables.
BTW Hi Malachi
The coffee: Are you going to get cocoa, tobacco, savory, or something else at finer grinds? This will interact with the perception of sweetness. This is where cupping the coffee and knowing what flavors are available is important
The roast level:With medium roasts that have slow extracting and sweet caramels, finer grind/lower dose usually will sweeten things up; but you will also hit a wall. With darker roasts, finer grinds will get bitter, since the caramals are less sweet; with lighter roasts, finer grinds will just taste blander, since the sweetness is in sugars which dissolve fast.
Roast profile: Having new controls is a sometimes a dangerous thing. Now , with much improved roaster controls and measuring gear, roasters are trying out new things, stalling the roast at some places, speeding up at others. This in tidelf is a good thing. Talking about how brilliant this all is, rather than actually cupping the results, creates some very odd results. I know these odd profiles produce some anomalous, or at least unexpected, responses to dose and grind changes. I don't know enough yet to be able to characterize the canonical correlation between profiles and brewing variables.
BTW Hi Malachi
Jim Schulman
