howdy guys,

My name is Dante and my Brother and I are getting ready to open up a coffee shop here in my home town and I had a question on steaming the milk.

What would be ideal serving temp?
we're currently going up to about 140 but its not tasting quite hot enough. but i mean everyone has their own preferences.

thanks in advance for the help.

I believe 140-150 is considered ideal. No higher than 160, or you risk burning the milk and ruining the flavor.

Also, never re-heat the milk after it's been steamed once. Throw out any leftover milk from the last batch, rinse the pitcher and refill with fresh, cold milk. Resteaming milk will result in some really awful flavors.

There are some great milk steaming tips here:

http://coffeegeek.com/guides/frothingguide

Awesome.
Thanks for your help. I'm kind of a scrub around here.

I'm curious what other shop owners have to say, but my guess is that 140F will be too cool for most customers. I target around 150F, though my sister prefers it hotter. Adding five degrees and super-heating a ceramic cup with steam boiler water is enough for her. At most cafes, she'll ask for extra hot, which they interpret as "Scald the milk, please."

160 degrees is about the perfect temp. I keep my fridge at 34 and my steaming pitcher in the freezer and when its time to steam this combo produces awesome micri foam

HB wrote:I'm curious what other shop owners have to say, but my guess is that 140F will be too cool for most customers. I target around 150F, though my sister prefers it hotter. Adding five degrees and super-heating a ceramic cup with steam boiler water is enough for her. At most cafes, she'll ask for extra hot, which they interpret as "Scald the milk, please."

150 for me as well. I don't measure anymore, as with the small pitcher, I can sort of feel when it's right. But a while back, I stuck a thermometer in, read 149, shut down the steam, poured the contents in my usual haphazard manner, and it was awesome, bay-bee!
I will admit I use only organic whole milk. That might make a bit of difference, as well.
I just don't like that after-taste I was getting up at the 160 area.
I don't need to chill the pitcher, as the Cremina is a steam-demon.

Proteins start curdling very quickly at around 150F to 155F (they curdle, but very slowly, at lower temperatures). This curdling first stiffens and ultimately destroys the foam. However, the milk sugars don't really sweeten up until 140F to 145F. So good frothing requires finishing in a fairly narrow band, around 145F to 150F. This doesn't mean the milk is ruined if you to it a little cooler or hotter; but it does mean you could have one better.

Most people consider a water temperature of more than 145F as scalding. However, the milk foam has a much lower heat transfer capacity. For instance. you can stick you hand into a 400F oven for 5 seconds without problems, but not into 200F water without getting scalded, and the foam is mostly air. This is why some people who are only sipping the foam may consider properly frothed milk as too cool. If you train your people to froth to the right temperature, you can also train them to tell customers that the coffee will taste much hotter than the foam

Paper cups have very low specific heat, so preheating it is not an issue. Ceramic cups should be preheated to 140F to 150F as well. In general, the warming tray on the espresso machine will work fine.

I hate milk that's been steamed to over 150f.
It loses all the sweetness so quickly.
In addition, integrity of the microfoam goes to s**t.

If people feel it's too cold - fill the cup with boiling water first.

Had a customer who always wanted an extra hot latte to go.
Complained all the time that it wasn't hot enough and that it would "go cold in the car."
Started serving it to her in a double to-go cup and told her I was steaming it much hotter.
She was happy.

malachi wrote:Had a customer who always wanted an extra hot latte to go.
Complained all the time that it wasn't hot enough and that it would "go cold in the car."
Started serving it to her in a double to-go cup and told her I was steaming it much hotter.
She was happy.

Chris, same sort of "trickarooski" we audio engineer/producers do with folks that want a vocal overbearingly loud in a mix. We have a "dummy" fader, and scoot it up about an inch. The next play-back, they say, "OK, much better."
Of course, I don't do that anymore.

Here's a blog entry that may fit with this discussion, especially when you have to explain your milk temperature to your customers.

I've been ordering low-temperature cappuccinos for a few months now, and I enjoy them. My local haunt said they still have a problem converting a lot of regulars over to the low-temperature idea. They want it piping hot, I'm guessing because they can sip it over a longer period. However, I do like malachi's method.

I only drink Latte's and Milk frothing is my speciality. I've got it down to a science "for me" and people that come to my home.

I heat to 160 and stop.... Its stays hot long enough to serve and drink slowly. 140 is way too low IMHO. 160 is nice and drinkable right away and not burning hot, just right perfect every time ...

Another aspect to consider is what type of milk people are using. You are not going to get the same results with half creme, full and skim.

I use only skim milk, but its French Skim milk so it really tastes good without the fat, known as "ecreme"

Very easy to froth to a microfoam, and tastes great in Lattes, but at 160 degrees

IMAWriter wrote:We have a "dummy" fader, and scoot it up about an inch. The next play-back, they say, "OK, much better."

Referred to as 'Phantom Mixing'. All engineers do it. I used to leave a strip free in the middle of the monitor console so that when the deaf guitarist started spitting on me I could look over at him all concerned-like, twaddle with some knobs in the middle of the console, and just keep looking concerned until I got the nod from him. Works every time.
Milk temp is *somewhat* subjective, and I'm pretty sure that you can't tell someone that they're preferring their coffee wrong. That's a bit 'I'm the all-powerful center of my universe!" for me... I usually steam until the pitcher is uncomfortable to hold. If you can hold it in your hand without squirming, it'll feel a bit cooler once it's in the cup. If you steam until you can't keep your hand on it, you should be right in the ballpark. My money is on 150-165F with that technique.

misterdoggy wrote:I only drink Latte's and Milk frothing is my speciality. I've got it down to a science "for me" and people that come to my home.

I heat to 160 and stop.... Its stays hot long enough to serve and drink slowly. 140 is way too low IMHO. 160 is nice and drinkable right away and not burning hot, just right perfect every time ...

You're probably going over 160, especially if you're using a thermometer.
And even at 160, you're drastically reducing the sweetness of the milk.

Carryover temperature is something you should keep in mind. Even If you stop steaming at 140F, you are going to have several degrees of carryover. Just as in cooking, if it is done in the pan, it will be overcooked on the plate. Different machines heat faster so the carryover temperature will vary but as a general rule the faster the steamer, the higher the carryover has been my observation. It also changes with volume. 8 ounces of milk will not carryover as high as say 20 ounces, again my observation. I have not thermocouple'd milk to study the thermals, just observation over the past few years. I usually stop around 140F on my machine and it carries over another 5-8 degrees after I stop steaming.

I like to drink my cappa after making it, and 160+ degree milk is just too hot. I would let it sit and cool a bit before I drank it. I dont use a thermometer any longer but now and then I will show off and steam some milk, proudly proclaim the temperature then put in the thermometer. Most of the time I am within a couple of degrees, sometimes I feel like an idiot, but it is fun nonetheless.

So keep in mind that when someone says they stop steaming at 140, they are probably getting 145-148 because of carryover and thermometer lag. I dont care for milk over 150-155, it goes flat IMHO, and lower than 140 it does not develop.

It's a matter of personal preference of course, but I find that milk generally reaches its full level of sweetness around 55 degrees celsius (about 131F). Anything above 90C (140F) it goes downhill quickly.

That's also the way Italians tend to like it - but to each their own of course:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2...italy.mainsection1

And as misterdoggy said, you may also find that the optimal temperature varies slightly depending on the choice of milk. BTW - oddly enough - many French cafes actually use UHT milk for their au laits and cafe cremes (not that the French variations of coffee are necessarily benchmarks to aspire for ).

Let me clarify that 160 is the temperature not 165. I stop on the way up using a thermometer and the needle continues to rise after.

I like it hot enough to take small sips, but it would be too hot to take gulps. But who wants to gulp their latte's.

I'm in Italy all the time and live 1 hour from the border, and yes its true that the latte's are probably luke warm at best and very foamy. I always ask where they get their beans and am always surprised to hear some commercial brand.

I always wondered why the spaghetti, and coffee was so much better when you go over the border and I can only attribute it to the water. They must have different water. Like the H&H bagels in New York that no bagel anywhere else can compare. It must be the water

Anyhow, not to get too far off subject, in the end, I believe that rather fitting a formula, you have artistic liberty to make the cup the way you like it, strength, foam, and temperature. 160 does not cut the sweetness out of my milk or I wouldn't do it, caus I like it sweet.

I guess that is the problem with a commercial establishment. Everyone has their own preference. You just have to find what the bulk of your customers like and keep with it. A regular customer may have their own taste and the barista could steam to the temperature they prefer but you would not want to ask every person if they wanted warm, hot or magma milk. I like my drinks on the slightly cooler side so I can enjoy them right from the machine and not let them sit and cool. After I drink down one, I just make another.

cannonfodder wrote:I guess that is the problem with a commercial establishment. Everyone has their own preference. You just have to find what the bulk of your customers like and keep with it. A regular customer may have their own taste and the barista could steam to the temperature they prefer but you would not want to ask every person if they wanted warm, hot or magma milk. I like my drinks on the slightly cooler side so I can enjoy them right from the machine and not let them sit and cool. After I drink down one, I just make another.

Indeed would be crazy asking each customer how hot they wanted their milk steamed. The preponderance wouldn't have a clue the actual milk temp they like anyway. I'd estimate less than 5% ask for their latte etc. "hot" and less than that "cool". FWIW our target temp is 145f final temp (after coast). When someone asks for extra hot we'll push it to ~160f max.