trix wrote:Maybe you are grinding a bit too fine so that a 20kg tamp would choke the machine.

The finer the grind, the less effect tamp has. When grinding coarsely, one needs to mash down the coffee to make enough room to insert the PF. The untamped coffee barely reached the basket rim on the demonstration shots.

trix wrote:I just tried several shots...varying the tamp...or lack thereof...the no tamp was a messy clean up....

Perhaps you're grind too coarsely. How do your pucks compare to the images here?

trix wrote:Question....why not tamp?

Indeed, why not? It's a technique, but with very limited utility and effect. The demonstration is to show just that, not advocate no one should tamp.

The goal is unexceptional, consistently great espresso. Too many people get sidetracked concentrating on zero effect "zero force polish after mid tamp" and "proper 30lb tamp", for example, when focus on coffee, grind, dose and a simple compaction to clear the shower screen would pay faster dividends.

It's not that difficult.

When I joined the forums I wanted to learn hot to make tasty espresso with my machine - it was Saeco model similar to Aroma. It was impossible for me to pull a tasty shot with it. After reading all the available tutorials I learned dosing, levelling and tamping (though I had already read Schomer's book). I got something drinkable after applying all my body force to this damned (pressurized!!!) portafilter. Then I understood I needed to change equipment.
Short after I bought the Vivaldi, Ken Fox started his colander campaign. I tried to point out that tamping is related to coarseness of grind but I was ignored in the middle of the battle for, as he explained, what was the original use of the equipment as it was designed.
Of course there is some sound advice in this thread, but unfortunately accompanied with claims like 'low doses doesn't need tamping' and 'It's all Schomer's fault how Americans overdose their baskets' etc.
Then there sprung up discussion among lever machines users about tamping and that encouraged me to have a try of no-tamping - it was disaster.
As I already mentioned above, tamping force is related to grind - at least at pump machines. In his book David Schomer advocates 'about 17g of coffee' for his blend. So he's not overdosing, is he? since overdosing was stated several times on these forums to be 18g<.
Those who repeat that in italian cafes baristi do not tamp at all or use the grinder's plastic tamper - please consider that those baristi don't use naked portafilters and if they did they could verify their technique. In Poland in Coffeehaeven line of cafes they also use the plastic tamper - their coffee is better at my home (if they agree to sell me their beans fresh again - ouch!) At the cafes the crema is pale and the coffee is bitter. I haven't yet tried espresso in an italian cafe, sorry, but I heard many stories about how bad is espresso in its homeland (not only becasue of bean quality but also because it's a gusher).
So all of those campaigners against tamping, overdosing, naked pf and whatever else it will be next, cool down a tad - I agree it is possible to pull a decent shot without tamping. I will go even that far to believe that it is possible to pull decent shots without tamping consistently. Still it doesn't mean that the same shots pulled with different grind setting, different dose and different tamp will not taste better.

On my Vivaldi for doubles 30lbs tamping is crucial and singles prefer lighter tamp or more then 10g of coffee in the basket.
On my Caravel (but I haven't yet pulled even 10 shots) I put 10.5g of coffee at the same grind setting as for Vivaldi's doubles, compress the coffee a bit and then thumb it (tamp pressing it with my thumb along the bakset's wall) - then it is enough to lock very firmly and pull until the elixir comes out (this means pressing the lever quite hard.... I haven't measured but probably I have some 5 seconds of so called preinfusion)
So concluding, tamping in my opinion is important. Of course, if one has poor coffee, poor distribution, bad grinder or whatever else poor&bad - no trick will save the cup.

If you overdose (which it appears you are), the shower screen is probably doing a little tamping as you lock in the PF. I have read a lot of debate about how head space affects shot quality. There are so many ways to get that delicious nectar from bean to cup!!

vanboom wrote:If you overdose (which it appears you are), the shower screen is probably doing a little tamping as you lock in the PF.

Not sure if you are replying to the original or post above.

On a single basket, it's quite easy to get ~13g in the basket without hitting the shower screen. If 7g is a 'normal' dose, then 10g is over dose. However a 7g dose is "untampable" as the tamper hits the basket before compressing all the coffee. The skinny end of the typical plastic POS tamper is better than any fancy coffee hammer in that instance.

You may want to rethink your assertion that the shower screen is 'tamping'. A large measure of the tamping raison d'etre is to ensure the puck does not contact the shower screen on lock-in. Think about what happens when locking in untamped. Loose coffee is pressed against the screen and as the filter is rotated into place, there is a large horizontal shear coupled with a small vertical compression. If conventional wisdom is correct, the puck is being torn to shreds.

vanboom wrote:If you overdose (which it appears you are), the shower screen is probably doing a little tamping as you lock in the PF. I have read a lot of debate about how head space affects shot quality. There are so many ways to get that delicious nectar from bean to cup!!

I overdose singles as they're tastier made with 10g. I make doubles with 15 to 16g.
Of course head space is important.
Maybe on Vivaldi with preinfusion no-tamp will have better result then mine.

cafeIKE wrote:7g dose is "untampable" as the tamper hits the basket before compressing all the coffee. The skinny end of the typical plastic POS tamper is better than any fancy coffee hammer in that instance.

Very true!

cafeIKE wrote:You may want to rethink your assertion that the shower screen is 'tamping'.(...)

And very true again! ...and the cheap machines market ignores all sorts of wisdom and sells crap that produce even worse crap from another crap. That is, there exist so-called espresso machine in the pressurized-pf class which has opti-press technology. It presses the puck against the machine's shower screen. The more you upscrew the pf the more it presses.
I'd call this 'technology' opti-screw instead

Just my opinion. I voted important with the following conditions applying. Quality of grind, dose and distribution are more significant elements in yielding an acceptable shot. But a poor or bad tamp can cause harm. Using the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (PVL) I'm beginning to feel at least with this lever machine tamping is only need to allow puck clearance to cleanly lock in the portafilter.

I've streamlined my espresso ritual. No dosing by weight on a routine basis. Current method involves while grinding flipping the doser lever and rotating the filter basket, giving the basket a gentle shake using the single filter basket as a lid(levels the grinds), sweeping the excess if any using the single basket and lightly tamping to allow for clearance. Works well, but the PVL is a very forgiving machine relative to the IsomacTea & Elektra MicroCasa a Leva I have owned.

FWW. I find with my lever machines, that a level puck with a consistent correct amount of grind for the basket is more important than the tamp. YMMV. I am still coming to terms with my Astra and can give no suggestions. I would accept some though.
Richard /espressme

Without a tamp, there isn't enough clearance on a La Pavoni Pro to lock it in or clear the screen.

I was using the double filter for several months and just recently switched to using the single basket trying to use the machine and dosing as it was designed to be used. I am still learning...still a novice really. I've been weighing and working with 7g singles. It is interesting how the degree of grinding is affected by how many days old the coffee is and adjustments need to be made, decaf and regular at different settings. There are lots of variables and lots to be aware of just to pull a dang espresso at home with a lever machine. But the journey/challenge has been fun along the way.

On the untamped shot, the coffee was about level with the rim of the basket. NO CLEARANCE WHATSOEVER. I just mashed it with the screen as I locked in. That's a clue, if you examine the puck photos

Aren't you just making it possible for more gunk to get up around the group.screen = more to clean?