I have been on youtube, google and to a barista course but still confused please correct me if im wrong -

cappuccino - single espresso, topped with creamy textured milk still capable of latte art but thick to taste (so how come starbucks have sooo much bubble bath foam on top) served in white porcelain cup and its stronger than a latte.(some times a pour the milk wiggling the jug so its white on top crema around the edge so i can put coco on) proportions 1/5 espresso the rest creamy textured milk-no spoon used to pour

Flat white - same as cappuccino but the milk is lightly textured so its creamy throughout and pours silky smooth but capable of latte art served same as cappuccino so the only difference is its not got so much foam in the textured milk - served in same cup

Latte - same as flat white but served in bigger tall glass weaker than other two.

Would appreciate it if you could correct me give me proportions or anything (I'm a massive newbie yes)

BaristaBen wrote:I have been on youtube, google and to a barista course but still confused please correct me if im wrong -

If you ask ten different baristi this question, you'll get a dozen different answers.
There are three schools of thought:

1. The WBC is the standard, and 'Flat White' and 'Latte' don't exist.

2. The Italians are the standard, and the 'Flat White' doesn't exist, and 'Latte' is a kid's drink.

3. "I'm the barista (owner, artiste, whatever) and my creativity cannot be contained, I can call this whatever I want to."

4. Starbucks is the end-all authority because all of the people are already used to what is what according to them. *

The real answer is that the terms have been used interchangeably and incorrectly for so long that they really don't have too much meaning or impact anymore. Official apathy has nurtured this problem for too many years to be able to correct it without some herculean effort.
I predict that this thread dissipates into a flame war in three... two... one... ; >


* I warned you about the disparity of answers to schools earlier...

I've never heard the term "flat white" except in online forums with Australian participants, so I'll simply refer to this prior discussion of the definitions for cappuccino and latte.

I've been to Italy 20 times, and this is the only way I have ever been served a cappuccino:

It is 1/3 espresso, 1/3 steamed milk, 1/3 froth on the top

To your espresso, add (pour) in the warm milk first; you may want to hold back the froth with a spoon or you may want to allow some of the froth to combine with the milk to create the pretty outline of the crema around the edge of the cup. Then either spoon the final 1/3 of the cup with the froth or gently allow the froth to pour from the pitcher. This is a cappuccino as served everywhere in Italy.

When steaming the milk, you want to obtain a 'drier' result....this is the thick froth that will rest on top on the espresso and steamed milk. Since you are expanding the milk more than you would for other milk drinks, you may need a larger frothing pitcher. It is also a good idea to keep your pitcher in the freezer since frothing the milk for a cappuccino takes longer, and the extra coldness will allow this.

Since the cap v latte comp is addressed in the referenced post:
I believe the Flat White name is used both in Australia & New Zealand. I was under the impression that it's "flat" 'cuz the milk is very foamless. Texturized for temp, but not really stretched at all. I think if you've got enough foam for art, then you've got too much foam. Similar coffee/milk ratio as a cap (e.g., 1:2, 1:3, 2:3, etc.), & don't consider the foam in the equation.

See, that's what I would think, given the description, but then there are articles on the drink like this one:

http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...lat-white/
"When heating the milk on the steam wand on the espresso machine, you have to create a certain texture/thickness depending on the coffees you are making," Callaghan wrote in an e-mail message from Sumatra, where he was visiting a coffee farm. "The texture of flat-white milk is perfect for latte art. And baristas love to do latte art."

And then "flat white." in London has a rosetta right next to its name.
http://www.flat-white.co.uk/pages/main.html

Anyway, I agree with Psyd's take on things.

differs country to country (and "wave" to "wave").

generally accepted "3rd wave" USA version goes something like....

Capp - 5.5oz drink, double shot of espresso, milk stretched more than latte but still pourable.

Latte - 8oz drink, double shot of espresso, milk only moderately stretched (should be only slightly thicker than 1/2 and 1/2).

Flat White - 8oz drink, double shot of espresso, milk nearly unstretched (though you can still pour latte art if you're good).

malachi wrote:Flat White - 8oz drink, double shot of espresso, milk nearly unstretched (though you can still pour latte art if you're good).

Being antipodean, I'd like to offer that in my experience a Flat White is typically a stronger drink than the others by virtue of being served in a slightly smaller cup - usually a 5 oz ACF tulip. It has sufficient foam for latte art, but less than the other two.

As everyone else has observed though, it a little different everywhere, but since it supposedly originated in NZ I guess I've seen it many times in its natural habitat...

kupe wrote:And then "flat white." in London has a rosetta right next to its name.
http://www.flat-white.co.uk/pages/main.html

I can vouch 'Flat White' in London serve them with a very nice rosetta, albeit bucking the trend in a 6oz ACF! For those that don't know it, 'Flat White' is an excellent little cafe in London run by Kiwis and Aussies, using Square Mile coffee.

Cheers, Chris

In my drink making, a Flat White doesn't exist.

There are three milk drinks to me. Machiatto, Cappuccino, Latte. And I sort of still consider a Machi to be an espresso drink. But, whatev.

Machiatto- Double Espresso in Traditional Demi, finished with Microfoam thats on the thicker side, but still pourable. I have a Demi made by D' Ancap, which is ever so slightly larger then my Nouva Points, Probably 2.5oz instead of 2.25, and thats the cup I reach for when I want a Machi. I prefer this style over the more traditional dollop of froth, because it adds an iota of milk, and the foam gets into the espresso. Makes for a cup of espresso goop.

Cappuccino- Double Espresso in a 5 to 7oz cup, finished with Microfoam thats thick, but art is no problem.

Latte- Double Espresso, in an 8oz or larger cup, finished with microfoam that's thinner then what would be used for a capp, but still art capable, and still ends up with a foam layer on top of the drink, albeit a small one. Like many espresso geeks, this became a "guest only" drink shortly after using top tier coffees, on capable gear.


I dont think that a Flat White isn't a drink.. just not something I make, or think to make. From what Ive read, its anywhere from 5 to 10oz, with steamed, BARELY, BARELY frothed milk. The main reason why I dont consider them part of my drinks, is because is doesn't appeal to me.

... There are three milk drinks to me. Machiatto, Cappuccino, Latte. ...

See how you are?

To me, the only milk drink is a breve. And to me, that means equal parts espresso and half-&-half.
Which means a minimum of a quad (for a typical "small" cup) if I'm out & about, or a triple if I'm at home.
As you say, the others just don't appeal to me.