OK - I hear about 30 pounds of pressure when tamping. Some tampers even have a "click" or other pressure mechanism set for 30 pounds.

However, I did some math:

A 49mm tamper covers 2.92 square inches. 30 pounds of pressure equals 10.3 pounds per square inch.
A 53mm tamper covers 3.42 square inches. 30 pounds of pressure equals 8.8 pounds per square inch.
A 58mm tamper covers 4.10 square inches. 30 pounds of pressure equals 7.3 pounds per square inch.

Looked at another way, to get 8.8 pounds of pressure with a 58mm tamper requires 36 pounds of force.
To get only 7.3 pounds of pressure with a 53mm tamper requires only 25 pounds of force.

So what's the rule? 30 pounds with a 58mm tamper, but only 25 with a 53mm? 30 pounds with a 53mm, but 36 pounds with a 58mm?

Or is the pounds of pressure irrelevant (within reason) so long as the tamp is consistent, and pull time is adjusted with grind fineness?

BACK TO TAMPING BASICS

No experienced baristas that I've observed have been casual about their tamping (as in, "Oh, whatever, sometimes I smack, sometimes lean, sometimes just level," etc.) Althought there's no single "best" tamping technique (or pressure), a "consistent" technique is worth pursuing. I found that a using a 30 lb clicker tamper was an easy and unobtrusive way to achieve a consistent pressure baseline.

Several months of using a clicker tamp helped establish a kind of muscle memory for that pressure. When I got the tamper, I'd already been pulling shots for 3 years and realized a big flaw with the bathroom-scale-on-the-kitchen-counter training method. Feedback from the scale is largely visual with the scale dial (in my experience) overriding the pressure "felt" in my hand and arm. Basically, I had been training myself to stop pressing when the dial got to 30. Duh! With that kind of logic, I could probably train my basset hound to tamp.

There's no problem in using the clicker tamper as you'd use any other tamper (either don't reach or override the "click," annd I'd recommend one for anyone who doesn't pull dozens of shots each day.

Martin

30 lbs is the number Schomer came up with. Presumably it works better than 15 or 45 pounds in his cafes. Most Italians don't tamp at all, but merely level the puck. Then I've seen people prepare for the Mr Universe contest by tamping.

The expert consensus is that any tamp or none, consistently applied, works. The real trick is to distribute and level the grinds perfectly, paying special attention that there are no gaps around the edge.

another_jim wrote:30 lbs is the number Schomer came up with.

I'm confused how either of the two responses addresses the question?

Did Schomer come up with 30 lbs using a 58mm tamper? Does this mean a 53mm tamper should only use 26 pounds?

My point is that saying "30 lbs" seems ridiculous. 30 pounds of pressure over a basket the size of a garbage lid would be tremendously less than 30 pounds of pressure on grounds poured into a straw. Obviously those two extremes illustrate the point while being ridiculously outside the real range. However, there is a surface area difference between 53 and 58mm. If "30 lbs" is the answer for 58mm, then why is not 26 lbs the answer for 53mm baskets?

Coffee grounds (and anything else in the univers) react to pounds per square inch. Not to "pounds."

I guess I'm just confused on the whole theory.

jmatt wrote:I'm confused how either of the two responses addresses the question?

Both responses seemed to clearly and concisely suggest that the actual pressure is of little importance but that a high degree of consistency is essential. To express that in other words, you're obsessing about something that's irrelevant; strive instead for consistency in technique.

I think Jim did answer the question. 'Consistency' in the amount of force you tamp with is the key, not the actual number. 30 lb. is just an amount of force that most people can apply the same every time. You may be different; just tamp the same every time!

You are technically correct - 30lbs of pressure is meaningless because of course pressure is a function of force and area. For example an espresso machine that gave 130lbs of pressure would be pretty meaningless, it's 130psi(9 bar) that's important.

However in espresso making it is just a guideline, as in 'aim to tamp about 30lbs on your scales' so if you tamp on your scales and get around 30 you're in the ballpark and you try and keep that to be constant. Tamping can't be as accurate as altering grind, so you try to scientifically alter grind and keep the tamping constant. Hence, you can grind finer or grind coarser whilst maintaining your tamp to try and hit around 25-30 seconds for 2 ounces (following golden rule). With an arbitrary number to aim at (30), this is easier, so you're changing as few variables at a time as possible.

As the others have said, distribution is more important. Get the right grind with a consistent tamp (the psi is irrelevant, it could be a hard tamp it could be a light tamp but be consistent) and perfect distribution of coffee and you'll get the shot you're after.

Hope this helps

DC

Tada!! Now I think I get it. I didn't mean to be dense.

I just read more about 30 lbs than I do about consistency. It sounds like one could use 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, or whatever, so long as they were consistent AND you could squeeze through your 2 ounces of water in 25-30 seconds.

I would think that in a commercial environment, all of the barista's would need to use about the same pressure, assuming they were all getting coffee ground from the same grinder. Otherwise, wouldn't one barista get a shorter or longer pull than another, even if they were individually consistent in their tamping?

Oh well - I'm just a home user, so I only need to adjust my grind to me.

Thanks for the insight, all.

My...how we all try to take these little bits of wisdom, bits of advice, and make them the Commandment of God!
FWIIW, I never measured my tamp pressure until a few months ago (OK, maybe a year ago). I have been making home espresso for >20 years and, after reading all the posts about 30# pressure, was curious at what pressure I was tamping. It turns out that I was tamping at ~34# pretty consistently. I have recently made a conscious effort to tamp at higher pressure since I am now under-dispensing coffee into the PF...but this is the subject for another post.

Anyway, I think the 30# is a good starting point and while you are correct that 30# downward force onto the area of a 58mm PF will yield less psi than the same downward force onto the area of a 54mm PF (or any PF of different area than 54mm diameter), it is good to acquire consistent and repeatable practices. Once your practices are consistent, you can then try to modify them to observe the result and hone in on that which works.

Len

jmatt wrote:OK - I hear about 30 pounds of pressure when tamping. Some tampers even have a "click" or other pressure mechanism set for 30 pounds.

However, I did some math:

A 49mm tamper covers 2.92 square inches. 30 pounds of pressure equals 10.3 pounds per square inch.
A 53mm tamper covers 3.42 square inches. 30 pounds of pressure equals 8.8 pounds per square inch.
A 58mm tamper covers 4.10 square inches. 30 pounds of pressure equals 7.3 pounds per square inch.

Looked at another way, to get 8.8 pounds of pressure with a 58mm tamper requires 36 pounds of force.
To get only 7.3 pounds of pressure with a 53mm tamper requires only 25 pounds of force.

So what's the rule? 30 pounds with a 58mm tamper, but only 25 with a 53mm? 30 pounds with a 53mm, but 36 pounds with a 58mm?

Or is the pounds of pressure irrelevant (within reason) so long as the tamp is consistent, and pull time is adjusted with grind fineness?

Assuming a cylindrical shape for the basket and a flat tamper, the compression of grains diminshes with distance from tamping surface:

TAMPER

\/
| most compressed grains
|
| middling compressed grains
|
| least compressed grains


Two baskets: one broad and shallow the other tall and narrow. The taller requires greater pressure to reach the same depth and degree of compaction as the broader shallower basket. Thus, although the pressure varies by surface area (force remaining constant) the compaction could average out to be much the same degree, the inequality in pressure notwithstanding.

Which isn't to say I'm wedded to the 30# idea. I sometimes do little more than level. Sometimes tamp ~ 30#.

Regards
Timo

another_jim wrote:30 lbs is the number Schomer came up with. Presumably it works better than 15 or 45 pounds in his cafes. Most Italians don't tamp at all, but merely level the puck. Then I've seen people prepare for the Mr Universe contest by tamping.

The expert consensus is that any tamp or none, consistently applied, works. The real trick is to distribute and level the grinds perfectly, paying special attention that there are no gaps around the edge.

I believe David Schomer came up with 30lbs after experimenting with lighter tamp pressures to save his and the elbows of his baristas. The recommended standard at the time was 50lbs+, I think he said, which was blowing the elbows out of baristas packing all day long. He found that 30lbs did just as good of a job and saved a lot of arms.

I think it was here on home barista where a thread was talking about the automatic grinder/tamper LaMarzocco was working on and how they found that a continuous tamp of over 18lbs packed the coffee so tight it choked the machine at any setting. The theory seems to be from what they found is tamping a full basket can't compact the bottom portion much. Lighter or heavier tamp wouldn't make a whole lot of difference then unless you're compacting in layers from the bottom up, I guess. I agree with consistency. Some of my best extractions are with a finer grind and a tamp that my hand feels just lightly compacts the grinds and tamping heavier with the same grind slows the extraction noticably.

It all boils down to shot consistency. You can tamp however hard you want as long as you consistently get good results.

mrgnomer wrote:I believe David Schomer came up with 30lbs after experimenting with lighter tamp pressures to save his and the elbows of his baristas.

Good call Kirk. He actually says just that in his book "Espresso Coffee Professional Espresso Techniques"
Save the elbows!

mrgnomer wrote:I believe David Schomer came up with 30lbs after experimenting with lighter tamp pressures to save his and the elbows of his baristas. The recommended standard at the time was 50lbs+, I think he said, which was blowing the elbows out of baristas packing all day long. He found that 30lbs did just as good of a job and saved a lot of arms.

Interesting how a procedure used to solve a particular problem becomes a universal "standard" which might not be relevant to much more than the environment in which it was originally applied.

As with all "rules" of espresso, there are no rules, only guidelines.

The point I was making was somewhat different than that. The "rule" applied to a particular environment and got "universalized." Based just on the calculations in this thread it may well not apply to other portafilter sizes. The practice of tamping reflected in this forum differs significantly between successful practitioners of the art. It is a reminder to me that the "truths" that we come to believe in are worth reexamining from time to time.

Talk about keep a thread resurrected!... But anyway..

IMO, and from my experience, if you find that you NEED some specific tamping force, particularly one that is quite low (5 to 10 pounds) or one that is quite high (above 55 pounds) then you probably have other problems for which you may be compensating which might include:

- too much dust in the grind (worn burrs or "economy" grinder)
- a grinder that creates clumping
- poor distribution in the basket prior to tamping
- too coarse or too fine of a grind
- too little or too much coffee in the basket
- too high or low of a brew pressure
- poor fit of tamper in basket
- stale or too fresh coffee

There are plenty of reports of folks using just a "leveling tamp," using not much more than the weight of the tamper, and I know of a pro barista/shop owner/roaster who is also a lead judge for the SCAA barista championships who uses a "handstand tamp," and he looks like an NFL lineman.

A few years ago it was said that the tamp should be between 15 and 45 pounds, and many found that the range yielded about the same results. No coincidence that 30 pounds rests in the middle of that range.

Randy G wrote:...if you find that you NEED some specific tamping force, particularly one that is quite low (5 to 10 pounds) or one that is quite high (above 55 pounds) then you probably have other problems for which you may be compensating...

Hi Randy...
I think the word problem is overstating the issue...

Not sure low pressure tamps necessarily constitute a problem. People can make the choice of low-tamp-pressure by design. I did for my ritual to be designed that way for the sake of consistency, and that I will be able to teach my wife to pull great shots.

I doubt my tamp is more than 5-10 pounds, and I pull dynamite shots...better than when I was doing 30 pound tamps. More repeatable...so if they are a problem, they are the best one I've had in years!

No no, hes saying that if you are FORCED to use a VERY light tamp, or VERY heavy tamp, not CHOOSING to do so, then there is other problems at work, as he listed.

You should be able to use whatever dose you want, at whatever grind you want, and whatever tamp you want, to achieve proper extraction. So, if you must dose this much coffee, at that grind, and tamp SUPER hard every time, something is wrong. However, if you CHOSE to do all those things, because thats how you WANT to, then no, there is no problem.