I've been homeroasting for about 6 months, and have owned a Rancilio Silvia & a Rocky for about 4-5 months. I'm still having problems pulling a decent espresso shot!

A few weeks ago, I read the article here "Dialing in a new espresso machine, a step by step guide", and have found it to be very helpful. By the end of my first "dialing" session I was pretty close (I thought). I was using Sweet Maria's Donkey Decaf Blend, which I had roasted. I was using a naked portafilter with triple basket, which I had purchased from Chris Coffee. I was tamping at 30 lbs according to a bathroom scale ... today I realized the 30 included the 4 lbs the scale indicated the PF weighed, so was really a 26 lb. tamp.

I temperature surfed ... turn on the hot water until the heater light comes on. Start the pull when the heater light goes off.

My last attempt had Rocky set to 8, and 20g of coffee. Everything looked good, except the pull was slightly fast. It had my best crema yet, but still not a lot. The taste was my best yet, but slightly sour.

Today was my second session. I was using Intelligentsia Decaf Black Cat Blend, which was roasted 7 days ago (by Intelligentsia). They say they roast at Full City, but this looked, smelled & possibly tasted like a much darker roast (as did their El Diablo blend I bought at the same time, but tried after about 3-4 days from roasting ... it tasted burnt to me). I used a real 30 lb tamp. My final attempt had Rocky set to 7, and 20g of coffee. The pull was just the tiniest bit fast. But it looked very good ... no blonding, no channeling. I stopped it at about 3 oz., which took about 20 seconds. It looked ok, although not much crema. But it tasted bitter.

So I ran an experiment ... I used the same parameters, but swapped cups each 5 seconds or so, so I could taste the espresso at each stage. I let it go 25 seconds:

#1: Little crema, good flavor, far too intense for me. It was pretty good as a heavily diluted Americano.

#2: Some crema, but bitter.

#3: Some crema, slightly less bitter.

#4: No crema, thin, very bitter.

#5: No crema, thinner, almost as bitter.

Then I intentionally pulled a shot with the water much too hot (I steamed first). This was by far the worst tasting espresso I've ever encountered ... just brutal. The bitterness seemed to sizzle on my tongue! And I thought I had already pulled some fairly bitter espressos!

Finally I pulled my first Cafe Crema. I used the double basket & PF, which came with Silvia. I used 12g of coffee (with 14g I couldn't come close to tightening the PF), but at 12 there were no indentations, although the top of the puck did look slightly messed up when I checked. It had been smooth when I installed it. Rocky was set to 18. BTW, my first attempt had a minor problem ... after tamping at 30 lbs & polishing, I turned the PF upside down over the sink to get rid of loose ground ... the grounds immediately fell from the PF, which had not been happening ... maybe it was the coarse grind. I pulled 5 oz. in 20 seconds. It wasn't bad, with good flavor, but slightly too strong (which a little extra water took care of). Unfortunately, it left a bitter aftertaste.

Any idea what I could be doing wrong?

Any chance the problems today were my choice of bean?

Thanks for your help!

Dave

I am fairly new the Silvia, but I have been working on similar problems for the 6 months I have had it. Just this weekend I tried opening the steam wand for 2 seconds, just as the shot begins. I'm not sure if it is preinfusing the grounds or just reducing the pressure of the extraction, but it took away all the bitterness. After reading your post I went and tried it again just to be sure. It was good.

I also found a while back that if I wait for 60 seconds after the light goes out the shot tastes much better.

I can finally drink straight espresso, not just milk drinks.

Hope it works for you.

dmorgen wrote:I stopped it at about 3 oz., which took about 20 seconds... I pulled 5 oz. in 20 seconds.

Lungo and double lungo? A double espresso is usually closer to two ounces in 25 seconds. Intelligentsia recommends pulling Black Cat as a ristretto to emphasize the sweetness and intensify the flavors (1.5 ounces and closer to 30 seconds). Decaffeinated coffees present their own challenge with bitterness...

dmorgen wrote:So I ran an experiment ... I used the same parameters, but swapped cups each 5 seconds or so, so I could taste the espresso at each stage.

Good experiment, and your results are reasonably consistent with Jim's description in Home Barista's Guide to Espresso:

bdbayer wrote:I also found a while back that if I wait for 60 seconds after the light goes out the shot tastes much better.

Welcome to temperature surfing, the rite of passage for Silvia owners and birthplace of a cottage industry of espresso machine PID conversions. You should peruse the site's how-tos and the FAQs and Favorites ("Silvia and Rocky"). While Silvia may be a fussy espresso machine, there are literally mountains of documented experience to draw upon.

Dave -

I consistently get what I consider to be excellent espresso from Silvia. But I have never been able to pull a decent shot using decaf. I have used both of the beans you refer to (Black Cat decaf and home-roasted Donkey Blend). I preferred the Black Cat, but it still wasn't very good to be honest. I'd suggest getting some good, freshly roasted caffeinated beans just to see if the decaf is the issue.

Jim

jggall01 wrote:I'd suggest getting some good, freshly roasted caffeinated beans just to see if the decaf is the issue.

Couldn't agree more! The other thing that I was thinking is to go to a good cafe, have a shot there and see if you can buy some beans right out of their hopper. That way, you get a frame of reference. Starting home roasting AND extracting espresso at the same time is really giving yourself a challenge! If you really want to start home roasting ASAP, why not buy beans for espresso and home roast for french press or something?

For temperature surfing, what tended to work for me was running water through the portafilter and into the cup until the element light went on. Then I'd wait until the light went off and wait a minute or two.

Hope that helps,

Luca

bdbayer wrote:I am fairly new the Silvia, but I have been working on similar problems for the 6 months I have had it. Just this weekend I tried opening the steam wand for 2 seconds, just as the shot begins. I'm not sure if it is preinfusing the grounds or just reducing the pressure of the extraction, but it took away all the bitterness. After reading your post I went and tried it again just to be sure. It was good.

I also found a while back that if I wait for 60 seconds after the light goes out the shot tastes much better.

I can finally drink straight espresso, not just milk drinks.

Hope it works for you.

It sounds like what you're doing (certainly the 60 sec wait) is cooling the water temperature. Some of the other suggestions accomplish the same thing. I'll play around with that. Thanks for the suggestions.

Dave

HB wrote:Lungo and double lungo? A double espresso is usually closer to two ounces in 25 seconds.

For the triple espresso I was aiming for 3 ounces in 25 seconds, but the flow tended to be a little faster than this.

The Cafe Crema was an attempt at something I've read about & sounded like I'd really enjoy. A very fast pull of a large volume in a short time, using a very coarse grind. I still think I'll enjoy it, once I can do it right!

HB wrote:Intelligentsia recommends pulling Black Cat as a ristretto to emphasize the sweetness and intensify the flavors (1.5 ounces and closer to 30 seconds).

I didn't realize this. Is that 1.5 ounces using a double basket? Presumably I should use a very fine grind?

HB wrote:Decaffeinated coffees present their own challenge with bitterness...

When I first got the naked portafilter, I played around with it using caffeinated coffee. I got so wired, I couldn't sleep that night, despite the fact I drank all this by mid-afternoon! So I decided decaf was the way to go for experimenting! The problem with now roasting some of my own, either decaf or caf, for espresso, is I have to wait 3-4 days for it to rest. Then I have to finish it within a few days, so it doesn't become stale. I do currently have some SO's rested 3 days, but they are relatively light roasts ... Mexican, Sumatra Blue Batak & Costa Rican decaf. Do you think any of these are worth trying as espresso? But, I don't want to use them in a mode where I'm very likely to dump the cup!

HB wrote:

dmorgen wrote:So I ran an experiment ... I used the same parameters, but swapped cups each 5 seconds or so, so I could taste the espresso at each stage.

Good experiment, and your results are reasonably consistent with Jim's description in Home Barista's Guide to Espresso: Welcome to temperature surfing, the rite of passage for Silvia owners and birthplace of a cottage industry of espresso machine PID conversions. You should peruse the site's how-tos and the FAQs and Favorites ("Silvia and Rocky"). While Silvia may be a fussy espresso machine, there are literally mountains of documented experience to draw upon.

I've already done some reading on the subject, but I guess it is time for more.

Thanks for your help!

Dave

jggall01 wrote:Dave -

I consistently get what I consider to be excellent espresso from Silvia. But I have never been able to pull a decent shot using decaf. I have used both of the beans you refer to (Black Cat decaf and home-roasted Donkey Blend). I preferred the Black Cat, but it still wasn't very good to be honest. I'd suggest getting some good, freshly roasted caffeinated beans just to see if the decaf is the issue.
Jim

You're right this is worth a test. But if I can't use decaf for espresso, it's really going to restrict my espresso drinking, since it's usually later in the day I'll have the time, energy, and clear mind to make some!

Dave

luca wrote:Couldn't agree more! The other thing that I was thinking is to go to a good cafe, have a shot there and see if you can buy some beans right out of their hopper. That way, you get a frame of reference. Starting home roasting AND extracting espresso at the same time is really giving yourself a challenge! If you really want to start home roasting ASAP, why not buy beans for espresso and home roast for french press or something?

I've actually been having pretty good, though inconsistent, results roasting for FP, Chemex, etc. ... and I think I'm getting better.

I have tried buying some Terroir beans for espresso, and I did get some good shots among the awful ones. But this was much earlier in my espresso play, when my results varied more widely. Now I'm consistent ... including consistently poor taste! BTW, I did drink some espressos at a Terroir open house ... very good! So I know it's possible!

luca wrote:For temperature surfing, what tended to work for me was running water through the portafilter and into the cup until the element light went on. Then I'd wait until the light went off and wait a minute or two.

Hope that helps,

Luca

I'm definitely going to play around with my temperature surfing. Thanks.

BTW, has anybody else found the Intelligentsia roasts to be extremely dark, well beyond Full City?

Dave

dmorgen wrote:It sounds like what you're doing (certainly the 60 sec wait) is cooling the water temperature [snip]

Actually, the 60 second wait is probably increasing the temp. Because of heat stored in the element, the boiler temp continues to rise for a minute or so after the heater shuts down (i.e. light goes off).

When Rancilio switched to the lower temp brew tstat, I think some of the old temp surfing info became outdated. The testing I did on the new Silvia suggests that shots pulled near the peak of the temp cycle give about 195F temperature at the puck.

So I agree with the suggestion on the 60 seconds, but for a different reason

Jim

Dave-

Not to spend your hard earned money, but to perhaps save you some time, coffee and frustration, you MIGHT be much happier if you PID Silvia, then you can remove all this temp surf nonsense and resulting unknowns and concentrate on your barista skills (dose, distribute, tamp, consistency), the coffee and refining your roasting skills.

I purchased a used Silvia, with PID, and have had it going since April. Most everything has been drinkable, but my palate has improved over time, and my frustration with Silvia was a bit high in late December (I had really spoiled myself using another machine I have). I dialed back the OPV to decrease the max pressure about two weeks ago, and have been much happier (see Adjusting Silvia OPV). I also finally caved to doing the WDT with Rocky, and yes, it certainly helps improve the consistency of even extractions, and reduces overall frustration. I've not committed myself to adding WDT to my daily routine, but with the Rocky, it makes a big difference.

For your SO's, lighter roasts and brighter coffees, I would try to do some of the finer grind, lower dose ideas that Jim Schulman had been advocating here in this forum (here and here). When doing this, I finish with a messier, soupy puck, but get even extractions, and it does in fact seem to tame things down and make a more enjoyable shot.

To reduce caffeine consumption and coffee usage (but maybe not your frustration level), you might trying pulling some singles. I've just had some very nice results pulling singles on the Silvia with a Cimbali single basket and the newly reduced brew pressure. In fact, these single shots have been the BEST EVER that I have pulled on Silvia. I haven't gone back to the Rancilio basket to see if I can get similar results yet. It is very easy to overfill the single basket I use, so I stop way short of where I think I would need to be with a double basket (no where near leveling the coffee at the basket rim), I WDT right in the singles basket (no yogurt cup needed, it's not full enough to spill out), tap the side of the PF sides a few times with my hand to "jostle" level the grinds, tamp, and pull my shot.

I would also advocate that you at least occasionally purchase some artisan roasted coffees from some of the site sponsors here. If nothing else, it will give you a benchmark to gauge your home roasting against.

dmorgen wrote:I didn't realize this. Is that 1.5 ounces using a double basket? Presumably I should use a very fine grind?

Actually Intelligentsia is well known for using a triple basket to pull ~1.5 ounce ristrettos. Jon's How to make a beautiful "naked" triple espresso explains the preparation in detail. I got hooked on triples for a short while and even wrote about it in The Neverending Novelty of Nakedness... Not.


Triple from the Buyer's Guide to the Elektra A3

jesawdy wrote:I haven't gone back to the Rancilio basket to see if I can get similar results yet. It is very easy to overfill the single basket I use, so I stop way short of where I think I would need to be with a double basket (no where near leveling the coffee at the basket rim), I WDT right in the singles basket (no yogurt cup needed, it's not full enough to spill out), tap the side of the PF sides a few times with my hand to "jostle" level the grinds, tamp, and pull my shot.

Update - pulled two perfectly good single espressos of less than 0.75 ounces (with crema) in the "dreaded" Rancilio single basket this evening. Build procedure the same as above.

So the equation is Rocky + Silvia + PID + Reasonable Brew Pressure + WDT + 8 months Practice = Decent single shots!

FYI, My Rocky zero point is zero... I am usually at 8 or 9 for a double.... I dial down to a 5 for the single.

jesawdy wrote:Dave-

Not to spend your hard earned money, but to perhaps save you some time, coffee and frustration, you MIGHT be much happier if you PID Silvia, then you can remove all this temp surf nonsense and resulting unknowns and concentrate on your barista skills (dose, distribute, tamp, consistency), the coffee and refining your roasting skills.

I purchased a used Silvia, with PID, and have had it going since April. Most everything has been drinkable, but my palate has improved over time, and my frustration with Silvia was a bit high in late December (I had really spoiled myself using another machine I have). I dialed back the OPV to decrease the max pressure about two weeks ago, and have been much happier (see Adjusting Silvia OPV). I also finally caved to doing the WDT with Rocky, and yes, it certainly helps improve the consistency of even extractions, and reduces overall frustration. I've not committed myself to adding WDT to my daily routine, but with the Rocky, it makes a big difference.

I figured that one of these days I would buy a PID to install. But I first wanted to be sure I like having an espresso machine, and Silvia was the right one. The problem with that, of course, is that having no PID makes things harder & taste worse! Also, I don't want to invalidate the warranty. (I'll have to lookup how long the warranty lasts!)

I'm using WDT. As far as I can tell, I'm getting good distribution. It's tough fitting the PF with yogurt container under the PF holder of the Rocky & still have the grinds go into it, but I'm managing! I first ground into a cup, which I then poured into the PF. But this is quicker, less hassle & I'm getting better results.

jesawdy wrote:For your SO's, lighter roasts and brighter coffees, I would try to do some of the finer grind, lower dose ideas that Jim Schulman had been advocating here in this forum (here and here). When doing this, I finish with a messier, soupy puck, but get even extractions, and it does in fact seem to tame things down and make a more enjoyable shot.

To reduce caffeine consumption and coffee usage (but maybe not your frustration level), you might trying pulling some singles. I've just had some very nice results pulling singles on the Silvia with a Cimbali single basket and the newly reduced brew pressure. In fact, these single shots have been the BEST EVER that I have pulled on Silvia. I haven't gone back to the Rancilio basket to see if I can get similar results yet. It is very easy to overfill the single basket I use, so I stop way short of where I think I would need to be with a double basket (no where near leveling the coffee at the basket rim), I WDT right in the singles basket (no yogurt cup needed, it's not full enough to spill out), tap the side of the PF sides a few times with my hand to "jostle" level the grinds, tamp, and pull my shot.

I would also advocate that you at least occasionally purchase some artisan roasted coffees from some of the site sponsors here. If nothing else, it will give you a benchmark to gauge your home roasting against.

More things to play with!

Thanks for your help!

Dave

HB wrote:Actually Intelligentsia is well known for using a triple basket to pull ~1.5 ounce ristrettos. Jon's How to make a beautiful "naked" triple espresso explains the preparation in detail. I got hooked on triples for a short while and even wrote about it in The Neverending Novelty of Nakedness... Not.

I just printed out those articles & others I've come across. A lot of fun reading to do!

I've been wanting to try a ristretto. But that's supposed to be tougher to pull than a normal espresso, so I'd probably be wasting my time. I'll probably end up trying it anyway!

Dave

jesawdy wrote:Update - pulled two perfectly good single espressos of less than 0.75 ounces (with crema) in the "dreaded" Rancilio single basket this evening. Build procedure the same as above.

So the equation is Rocky + Silvia + PID + Reasonable Brew Pressure + WDT + 8 months Practice = Decent single shots!

FYI, My Rocky zero point is zero... I am usually at 8 or 9 for a double.... I dial down to a 5 for the single.

"8 months practice" ...that's encouraging!

My Rocky zero point is also zero, ever since I took it apart to clean.

Dave

jesawdy wrote:So the equation is Rocky + Silvia + PID + Reasonable Brew Pressure + WDT + 8 months Practice = Decent single shots!

How long did it take you with doubles?

I've had my (new) Silvia for just over a month now and I'm up to about 1 good shot in 4. Before upgrading I was starting to love the whole espresso process. For me, Silvia has made pulling consistently decent espresso a frustrating chore

Haven't looked into any mods yet though, been concentrating on technique.

DC

DC wrote:How long did it take you with doubles?

I was more or less happy "out of the gate" with my Silvia, but I had purchased it used and with a PID already installed. That may have saved me significant frustration starting out.

Would I be as happy today with those same shots?... decidedly not. I was also getting pretty frustrated with Silvia about two months ago. I had spoiled myself with a much more forgiving machine, and I did not relish using Silvia much longer.....

I think these things in the recent past have helped me come to terms with Silvia... Of course YMMV... I just like the results I have had of late.

1) I have switched to only using a bottomless portafilter for the last few weeks. If you don't have one, I think you need one. I've had one, but it often leaked at the gasket, so I usually did not use it. When I did use it, things were more or less good, but not perfect. I don't think the bottomless adds anything in the cup, in fact I think I might would prefer for it to hit a spout to break some of the crema bubbles, but it is invaluable for feedback of shot building technique.

2) I dialed down the OPV on Silvia... she seemed to become more forgiving.

3) I now dose down to a more "normal" level.... before I was dosing 17-20 grams. I wish I could tell you where I am right now, but my scale is on the blink at the moment. I am probably much closer to 14 grams right now. When I started with Silvia, I was shooting for 15-16g. Right now, my tamper tells me that the dose volume is greatly less than 18g. (EDIT - I think my scale is behaving.... 16g dose, 25g beverage, 64% brew ratio)

4) I pull a lower volume shot for the most part now.... targeting ~1.5 ounce doubles. I will pull longer if the shot is holding up. I was pulling a larger volume before.

5) WDT - For Rocky at least.... I know WDT is "not a cheat", but I resisted forever. My technique is slightly different. I do not use a yogurt cup. The reason is that with my current basket of choice, I am not overfilling the basket. I grind into the PF, wisk with my WDT tool (a bamboo skewer) over the kitchen sink (very little spills out), and level with the skewer edge as well. I usually finish slightly less than full, so I "jostle", "jar" or tap the pf side to finish leveling the grinds . My tamp works equally well, whether it's 1 straight down tamp, or the NSEW 4 corner Staub tamp, polish or no polish. With the WDT technique described here, it is very low tech, very easy, and somewhat embarrassing as it seems to require no skills at all!

I think my scale is working again... it had an encounter with some moisture a few weeks back, weighing some known items tonight and it seems okay.

So, I'm not as dosed down as far as I expected... a shot this evening was 16g dose, 25g beverage, 64% brew ratio.

However, I was consistently at 18g+ dosing by volume alone with Rocky and various distribution methods. My grind is fined up a bit and I have quite a lot more headspace, I usually do not encounter the showerscreen even after puck expansion... once in a while, just a faint impression of the center screw. This leaves the pucks a little soupy, but the extractions are very even.

Hi Jeff,

The technique I've settled on is to grind into a jug, pour this into my pf (no tapping), WDT, distribute and level with a flat edge, and then do a nutating tamp followed by a hard tamp (flat RB 58mm, no polish, no tap). I don't know what dose this gives me, but after tamping the top of the puck is just below the top of the ridge in the stock Rancilio double basket. I seem to be grinding a lot coarser than most Rocky owners - I haven't checked the zero-point, but at this dose, I'm using a grind of 15-17 on the Rocky to get 30 second 50ml shots. I've stuck with it for consistency, but maybe it is time to get a scale.

I do use a naked pf, and probably 3 out of 4 shots channel after 20 seconds with a large bubble underneath the main cone, making the shots run short (the flow slows right down) and harsh-tasting. Over time I've seen some improvement - more even starts and no spritzies.

The naked pf did come with its own unbranded 'double' basket, but it's enormous and to be honest I've been frightened to use it:


L to R: Rancilio single, Rancilio double, Unbranded 'double' from naked pf

Assuming I'm not missing anything else, my machine seems to require the puck to be absolutely level in order not to channel. Obviously I don't always manage this

Thanks for the reply, I'll look into the OPV mod
Dave

Edit

jesawdy wrote:once in a while, just a faint impression of the center screw. This leaves the pucks a little soupy, but the extractions are very even

If that's the case, perhaps I am way over-dosed; the bolt routinely drills a hole in my pucks (before and after extracting). I'll do some guesstimated down-dosing and re-post if that solves my problems.