dmorgen wrote:Any suggestions for slowing down the pull longer than 22 sec.?

....

BTW, one other thing I noticed. With the triple basket, after tamping I could turn it upside down & shake it to remove loose grinds. But today, using the double basket, simply turning it over was likely to end up with all the coffee dropping out. Is this typical of the double basket, or could something else be going on?

Dave-

A couple things...

First, I want to be sure that you realize that you can swap baskets in and out of the naked and other portafilters. From your post I get the impression that you may have only used the triple basket with the naked in your experiments while having only 12g of coffee. While I suppose it might work, I would think it would be less than ideal. The basket shapes and number of holes are designed to accommodate the appropriate amount of coffee for a single, double or triple and have the shot volume and time be appropriate for the respective shot. While they are not perfect, you can adjust the grind a bit for the different baskets. You can also try to keep the headspace above the puck about the same. Alternatively, you can play with the dosing technique, but I digress.

You should simply invert the puck after tamping, no shaking and just let the grinds fall out (or wipe the rim of the basket and PF ears and not worry about the errant grinds). Your puck may have fallen out from shaking, tamp, or just an overly dry coffee. The single basket has done this to me a few times with perfectly good coffee, so I just dropped inverting the PF from my shot build.

Generally speaking, you up the dose, or fine up the grind to slow the shot. Depending of the resistance of the puck, reducing the OPV setting might help as well.

DC wrote:12g? Still with the double basket? That's a low dose! Does anyone else dose this low in a double basket? It might have been slower than your higher dose because the higher one channeled.

I was surprised at the low dose. But the indentation in the center of the puck after installing the PF when dosing 14g is quite deep; there's still a slight indentation at 12g. My understanding is the best results are when there's no indentation whatsoever. I'm using a bathroom scale to determine I'm doing a 30 lb. tamp, and I am pushing down pretty hard; otherwise, I would think I may not be tamping hard enough. The puck does end up noticeably below the line at the bottom of the top basket ridge, so this does seem pretty low. I'm also curious what others find using this basket.

Interesting theory about the channeling. That could certainly contribute or fully cause the fast speed. But there's definitely a pattern of too fast a flow in general. I doubt channeling is the entire problem overall.

DC wrote:I find it hard to go back to spouts after using the naked pf unless I've had 4 or 5 good shots in a row. This hasn't happened yet with Silvia Laughing

What do you like about the naked PF? I find it does give me more info. OTOH, I like the simplicity of not worrying about that stuff at least some of the time!

DC wrote:Quote:
Any suggestions for slowing down the pull longer than 22 sec.?

Dose a bit more and go back to the naked pf for a bit to make sure you aren't getting any channeling. Personally I wouldn't try 11g, it seems far too low - but someone correct me if I'm wrong...

The results are very consistent for channeling to be the problem ... unless I'm making very consistent mistakes ! I guess it can't hurt to try the naked PF to get a better idea what's going on, especially using the double basket.

DC wrote:Quote:
....using the double basket, simply turning it over was likely to end up with all the coffee dropping out. Is this typical of the double basket, or could something else be going on?

It's because your puck is losing adhesion to the sides of the basket. It usually happens if you slip with the tamp, if you try to correct a canted tamp, or if you tap too hard on the basket or accidentally knock it. If I'm way off-level I find it best to knock out the puck, wipe the basket clean, and start again. I don't think it's anything to do with the basket per se. I've had this happen a lot recently, which I blame on my choice of tamper handle (radical pro)... I had a lot of canted tamps which I mistakenly tried to correct at the last minute.

When you start again, do you use the same coffee already in the basket, or start with fresh ground?

Dave

harris wrote:I use the double baket and dose at 15-15.5 grams.

216* on the PID

Two of the most important factors in pulling a good shot from the Silvia;

jggall01 PID kit and a Mazzer Mini E

How high in the basket is the coffee after tamping? How hard do you tamp?

For some reason I feel a PID kit in my future ! How long did it take you to install yours?

I've recently realized I have an interesting problem with a PID ... no room for the display! I've got Silvia, Rocky & Presto Scandi beside the sink. They are already too close together. The display has nowhere to go, unless it hangs over the sink ... somehow I think my wife would object ! This definitely requires some creative thinking on my part!

Dave

jesawdy wrote:First, I want to be sure that you realize that you can swap baskets in and out of the naked and other portafilters. From your post I get the impression that you may have only used the triple basket with the naked in your experiments while having only 12g of coffee. While I suppose it might work, I would think it would be less than ideal. The basket shapes and number of holes are designed to accommodate the appropriate amount of coffee for a single, double or triple and have the shot volume and time be appropriate for the respective shot. While they are not perfect, you can adjust the grind a bit for the different baskets. You can also try to keep the headspace above the puck about the same. Alternatively, you can play with the dosing technique, but I digress.

I do realize I can swap baskets. But for some reason it never occurred to me to actually do it! Thanks for pointing it out.

I found that 20g of coffee worked best in the triple. I've never tried the single.

jesawdy wrote:You should simply invert the puck after tamping, no shaking and just let the grinds fall out (or wipe the rim of the basket and PF ears and not worry about the errant grinds). Your puck may have fallen out from shaking, tamp, or just an overly dry coffee. The single basket has done this to me a few times with perfectly good coffee, so I just dropped inverting the PF from my shot build.

I like the idea of just not inverting the PF ... keep it simple!

jesawdy wrote:Generally speaking, you up the dose, or fine up the grind to slow the shot. Depending of the resistance of the puck, reducing the OPV setting might help as well.

My concern is that I'm already at the extremes ... I have a very fine grind with only a little room to spare using Rocky, and I already have a slight indentation in the puck from the screw before pulling the shot, so upping the dose is probably out.

I'd rather not start playing around with Silvia's internals yet ! But once I start delving into the world of PIDs that will change & I might as well screw around with the OPV then.

Dave

I don't worry too much about the indentation of the bolt anymore, and like you say, you have to drop really low to avoid an impression. As long as you're careful when you lock the pf into the group it should be fine. I tend to just look to see if the puck hit the showerscreen.

dmorgen wrote:What do you like about the naked PF? I find it does give me more info. OTOH, I like the simplicity of not worrying about that stuff at least some of the time!

That's the problem! Now that I've opened Pandora's box, all I do is worry about the extraction when it's hidden by the spouts (bit of a compulsive worrier, me ) Seriously though, if I watch the extraction and can see an obvious flaw, it's easier to fix quickly next time. If I had a bad shot with the spouted pf I'd probably have to pull another shot the exact same way in the naked pf to see what went wrong. I guess some people can do this by taste/experience alone, but I'm not so good at that yet. Also, I find watching the extraction adds to the satisfaction of making espresso myself (when it's good!), rather than just flicking the machine on and watching the coffee drip out of the spouts.

dmorgen wrote:When you start again, do you use the same coffee already in the basket, or start with fresh ground?

Use the same stuff again, I just dump the coffee back into a jug/cup and fluff the grounds up with the needle I use for WDT, and re-dose.

DC

dmorgen wrote:How high in the basket is the coffee after tamping? How hard do you tamp?

For some reason I feel a PID kit in my future ! How long did it take you to install yours?

I've recently realized I have an interesting problem with a PID ... no room for the display! I've got Silvia, Rocky & Presto Scandi beside the sink. They are already too close together. The display has nowhere to go, unless it hangs over the sink ... somehow I think my wife would object ! This definitely requires some creative thinking on my part!

Dave

Hi Dave,

After a 30lb tamp the puck sits at the ring. I have cut a curve in a credit card, using a 12 inch dinner plate as a guide, that helps distribute the grounds.

Life is great with a PID, it took me a couple of hours to install from start to finish. The instruction book was amazing in its detail. I am sure Jim can give you some ideas on where to mount the PID. I have seen some mounted next to the brew group by the steam arm.

best of luck


h

Dave, how are you getting on?

I don't know if this will be of any use to you, but I took some photos and a video of the last shot I did to give you an idea of what I'm dosing at. Your raw numbers will be different, but I thought it might help as a guide.

-Two level scoops of beans (turns out to be 15g for my current beans)
-Grind set at 13, grind into a jug, ensuring I get as many of the grounds out of the chute as possible (ends up being 15g as well)
-Transfer to pf+rancilio double basket, WDT, tap sides of pf and jostle it until the grounds are fairly level, then 'thunk' twice on the counter top to settle the grounds. At this point, this is the level of the coffee:



Perform a nutating tamp, bring the tamper level (the top of the tamper base is flush with the basket rim at this point) followed by a hard straight-down tamp. This is the level of puck after tamping:


Slightly canted, but you get the idea

Clear any loose grounds from around pf and basket (underneath as well), lock in carefully.

Pull shot: (turn the audio down or the horrible ringtone of the housephone will drive you mad )


The start wasn't as even as I'd have liked, and there were a few spritzies, but I thought it was a nice pour (criticisms welcome). In the cup, well, I don't think it would blow anyone away but it was the best shot I have pulled on Silvia since I got it
Brew ratio was 45%. Might grind finer for the next one.

After the shot, this was the puck:



Hope that helps. Thanks to Jesawdy, and to Cannonfodder's dialing-in thread for getting me this far!

DC

PS

harris wrote:I have cut a curve in a credit card, using a 12 inch dinner plate as a guide, that helps distribute the grounds

Any chance of a pic of this in action?

DC,

DC wrote:Dave, how are you getting on?

I don't know if this will be of any use to you, but I took some photos and a video of the last shot I did to give you an idea of what I'm dosing at. Your raw numbers will be different, but I thought it might help as a guide.

That was very helpful, especially the nutating tamp, which I hadn't seen before. Thanks!

Today I decided it was time to get out of experimental mode (although I do realize I'll never really leave it! ) & go into espresso production mode! I had some SM Monkey Espresso Blend, which I had roasted 7 days ago at Vienna. I started with 13g (I think ... some scale problems, so may have been a little less), and Rocky set to 5 (relative to zero point). I tamped more less as you describe, with the nutating tamp being the biggest difference from what I had been doing. I used the double basket which came with Silvia in a naked PF. I couldn't believe the results ... I actually got a slow flow of beautiful looking espresso ... I stopped it at 28 sec., just short of 2 oz.! Then I tasted it ... absolutely FANTASTIC! I now understood why people rave about espresso! It was sweet, bittersweet, and some other flavors I couldn't place. And that bittersweet flavor lingered for a loooong time ... until I finally drank some water, because it was time to try the next shot.

For the 2nd shot, I switched to a Bodum shot glass, so I could see the crema. I basically kept everything the same this time, except for using a 12g dose. This shot flowed much faster ... about 2 oz. in 14 sec. However, the shot looked great, and was initially almost all crema! In a short time the crema reduced to maybe 1/4" on top of the liquid (is this normal?). I didn't know what to expect tastewise after such a fast pour. But it was actually good! The extreme sweet & bittersweet flavors were reduced somewhat. So it wasn't as good as the 1st shot, but easier to drink ... very smooth & mellow.

Then I decided to really be bold ... I tried an SO shot. I had 2 choices, Sumatra Classic Mandheling (FC+, 7 days rest) & an Ethiopian Yirgacheffe. I went with the Sumatra (it was a very scientific decision ... I had much more of this bean remaining!). Everything was similar to the previous shot, except I tried 13g. It was again slow ... about 14 sec. for 2 oz. or slightly more. Crema was similar to the previous shot. This was a very different flavor ... a little bit sweet & fruity, a very strong roast flavor which I could not identify, very creamy, many more flavors (which I could not identify). I liked it, but not as much as the Monkey ... I'm not sure how much of that was my technique & how much was the different bean.

All in all, this session was far & away my best! I really enjoyed drinking the espresso (finally) & didn't even have to dump any shots, since even the "bad" shots tasted good. Any bitterness was "good" bitterness!

So, now my main concern is to slow those shots down to be more like the first one! I'll try upping the dose to 14g, and then play from there as necessary.

In general, how do people find the Sumatra Mandheling as an espresso? How about a Yirg?

Thanks for all the helpful advice everybody!

DC wrote:Hope that helps. Thanks to Jesawdy, and to Cannonfodder's dialing-in thread for getting me this far!

I've also found that thread to be incredibly useful.

Dave

For what it's worth I use a 12g dose on a regular occasion. Although anymore I use 14g. Speaking for doubles of course.

From what you describe, the 13g-28sec-2oz ballpark sounds best for you. Your first one will have been fairly well extracted, but not the next two. I find these pulls are usually bitter-sour and are often associated with a strong aroma in the kitchen that I can't place but have come to know as the 'aroma of under-extraction.' When I smell it, I know things aren't right without even looking.

As for the crema question, faster flowing shots produce more crema, and it is normal for it settle out as you describe, and often for the shot size to 'shrink.' From the dialing-in thread:

cannonfodder wrote:Another tell tale sign of too fresh a bean is the crema in the cup. A shot that consists of 2oz (coffee and crema) will quickly settle and go flat. Your two ounce shot quickly becomes a 1.25 ounce shot as the 'false' crema falls. Keep in mind that a shot, even from properly rested beans, will settle over time. A two ounce shot will settle down to about 1.75-1.5 ounces if left to sit for a minute

Yirgacheffe I find acidic - in a pleasant way - and I was surprised that it actually tasted 'refreshing' - not something I normally associate with coffee flavours. I might raise some hackles here (I'm still new to this) but I don't often drink blended coffees as I tend to find them a bit dull compared to SO. I've often wondered what black cat or ambrosia would be like but don't know if they'd survive the trip after roasting. Maybe it's because I started with SO coffees, or maybe the ones I use are particularly forgiving, I don't know.

Glad you're enjoying your shots now

DC