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Gaggia Classic with sour espresso - getting the right temperature - Page 2

Postby JimM on Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:42 am

I need to think about placing another order myself
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Postby JimM on Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:28 am

Made a quick video as I'm still finding my shots a bit sour and thin. To me it looked liked the extraction was even at the start, not sure where it went wrong.

Just wondered if someone with more knowledge could advise what might be the problem. Do the large bubbles in the crema mean its too cold as the machine had been left to heat up.

This is the coffee, it was roasted on the 14th. http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/Costa-Rica-Finca-de-Licho-2010%252d2011.html

Not great quality I know, I'll try and do a better video next time.

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Postby HB on Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:56 am

Large bubbles in the crema usually means the coffee needs to degas, i.e., it's too fresh. The extraction looked fine until the mid-point:

Image

Here the outer cone formed by liquid from the perimeter is pouring more quickly than the center, i.e., it's a donut extraction. However, it's minor enough that I would not expect it to ruin the taste. If the coffee was roasted very recently, letting it rest a couple more days may help.
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Postby JimM on Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:07 am

Thanks Dan, I found it too sour to drink as a straight shot but wasn't too bad as an Americano, not great though.
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Postby TrlstanC on Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:19 pm

Some suggestions for what to try next:

1. Order some different coffee, it's always good to order a popular espresso blend that a lot of people on here have tried. Something like CC's Aficionado, Caffe Fresco's Ambrosia, or Red Bird. These are all consistent coffees that a lot of people have had good luck using, and are pretty forgiving.

2. Measure the temperature of the water coming out of the group head (search for the styrofoam cup method) with a (cheap is fine) digital thermometer. It won't work great to fine tune the temp, but it will let you know if you're in the ball park. Between the cheap thermostats these machines use, and trying to temp surf with the steam switch it's easy to be 10 degrees too hot or cold - which will have a huge impact.

3. Try samples from the stream as the shot is pouring, just catch some of the stream in a spoon and taste it. Try to get, and taste, at least the first few drops, some from the middle, and some right at the end where you would cut it. If they're all bitter than you've got a problem with your beans (could just be too fresh), your temp is way off, or you've got some serious channeling going on. If the middle tastes good, and it's just the beginning and/or end that's really bitter than you've just got to tweak your dosing/grind/distribution.
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Postby another_jim on Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:50 pm

Your extraction had enough of a dwell time (delay at the start) but turned into a gusher at the end. This could either be because you are using too little coffee or because the coffee is too fresh. Try filling your basket a bit more.

If the temperature is too low, hitting the steam switch for a few seconds before you start, and turning it off once the coffee starts flowing, will do the trick. (Turning on the steam switch -- not the knob-- switches the machine to the hotter thermostat and forces the heat on).

Other than that, the cure for too sour is to make a more ristretto shot, one that dribbles at the start, takes longer to flow, results in a lower weight shot. You can achieve this either by grinding finer, dosing higher or both. Since you had a gusher and need to dose higher anyway, add more coffee at the same grind.

Your best bet is to go too far in that direction, so your espresso will taste bitter instead of sour. Once you've overshot like this, you'll be able to start interpolating, and find the spot where the balance is right.
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Postby JimM on Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:14 pm

Thanks for the tips its much appreciated

I'm in the UK so not sure I can get the beans suggested but I'll take a look. The beans I'm currently using seem more sour than the last bag I finished, I've ordered two more different types to try which should be here tomorrow so I'll test them.

I'll measure the temp from the group, whats the ideal temp about 95c?

I have no confidence in my dosing, I'm doing it by volume at the moment until my scales turn up next week. Could incorrect dosing cause sourness or is it purely temperature?
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Postby another_jim on Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:41 pm

You cannot accurately measure the temperature with a styrofoam cup; although it makes for an amusing game. Hitting the steam switch forces the heater to run. The earlier before the shot you hit it, and the longer you leave it on going into the shot, the hotter your coffee will be. Eventually it will stop tasting sour, and taste burnt instead.

You can dose higher by rapping the basket or PF to settle the grinds and adding more coffee before leveling off. This is mickey mouse compared to weighing; but it will rasie the dose. Your first goal is not to get a good shot, but to get a too bitter shot. Once you have that, you know where too sour is, and where too bitter is. If you don't have both, there's no way of finding just right.

In general, beginners tend to make their corrections in too small steps (all the while suspecting the coffee, grinder and machine of undermining them); so it can take them much longer than necessary to tune the shots. Tuning goes faster if you make an overly big change and overshoot the mark, because you then can split the difference. Big changes also give you a clearer idea of the full range of tastes you can get out of a coffee.

It's sometimes best to initially ignore all the espresso making golden rules and remember you have a lot of extraction choices. You can use a 12 gram doses to make a 2 ounce shot in 18 seconds, use a 21 gram dose to make a 1 ounce shot in 45 seconds, or do anything in between. You will not know where the best shot lies unless you are willing to explore these extremes and get an idea of the range of available tastes. I have gotten the best possible shots at both extremes, especially when using non-commercial gear or oddball coffees. Once your technique, gear and coffee are right, you will probably be drawn towards a golden mean in coffee, dose and shot time choices; but until then, it's best to experience the full range.
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Postby roadman on Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:09 pm

It could be the coffee you're using.

Hasbean has great coffee but only if you're looking for something bright, acidic and challenging. They don't tend to roast chocolate bomb comfort food type espresso. If you're used to something more in line with Italian espresso, you may need to look elsewhere for your fresh roasted beans.

TooMuchCoffee is a UK based coffee site. Check it out to find recommendations for UK and European based roasters that are more in line with the tastes you may be looking for.

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Postby JimM on Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:52 pm

Some progress today.

1. My scales turned up, I weighed 14g out the grinder and immediately I could see there was less in the basket than I had been putting in. This did lead to a soggy puck and no impression from the shower screen though, is this a problem?

2. Ran the steam switch for 20 seconds before brewing.

3. Stopped the shot at 25 seconds, there was less than 2oz so I guess I need to open the grind up a bit

Not sure if its a combination of all three but the resulting shot was much nicer, not sour or too bitter so hopefully it wasn't a one off. :D

Thanks again for all the assistance!
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