Good Morning.

I've been reading widely on this site/forum and have found it immensely helpful. Sometimes, I think I know too much, based on what I've been reading here.

This is a question I posted on CoffeeCrew this morning as well:

"Ok, after a few months of researching, I broke down and bought a Gaggia New Baby and a Baratza Virtuoso grinder.

I've had a very frustrating first two days with this setup and need some help.

Here's what I'm doing:

1. Grind directly into portafilter.
2. Distribute the beans evenly and level-off the portafilter (Stockfleth's move).
3. Tamp the beans at around 30-40lbs pressure.
4. Gently tap the portafilter with the handle of the tamper.
5. Rotate the tamper with about 20lbs of pressure to polish the grinds
6. Flip the portafilter to drop off excessive grinds
7. Insert portafilter into machine.
8. Press the brew switch and the start the timer.
9. Turn off the brew switch and the timer.

That's my process. With the grinder on 9, I get a shot at around 15 sec. Sometimes it's blonded before that. with the grinder on 8 (finer grind), the shot comes in at around 39 sec. I'm told that the ideal time for a shot should be 20-30 sec. I'm also told that this can vary between machines.

Both settings give me loads of crema, but the shots at 15 sec. are sour (like bile). The shots at 39, are quite bitter. I'm told that ideally, espresso should be the consistency of molten chocolate, and although still bitter, should taste almost sweet and not at all unpleasant. I'm told you should be able to drink it straight without need of cream or sugar. If I adjust my tamp pressure, I can get a shot at 18 sec. (hard tamp on coarse grind) or 35 sec. (light tamp on finer grind)

I phoned espressotec, and they told me there's nothing wrong with my grinder, and that an ideal shot should come in between 15-20 sec.

Help."

If you'd really spent a few months researching, you'd know that the Virtuoso is not very good for espresso.

You don't say how fresh your beans are or where you got them.

Shame on you for lying about doing a few months of research!

Ouch!!!

Actually, it was only after I'd made my purchase and started researching my troubles that I found that out. Everything I'd read on Coffeegeek and CoffeeCrew said it was a great grinder (Apparently Reg Barber uses one with his ECM Giotto). It's not that I didn't spend the time researching, just seems I just didn't research thoroughly enough. My bad. Anyways, it seemed to be the best grinder within my price range. And, for now, it's the one I've got. I only received it two days ago. I could return it, but would have to pay shipping, and perhaps a 15% restocking fee. Even if I did, I'm not sure what I'd replace it with. I cannot afford to spend any more than I did. A Rocky is twice the price. The only other grinders at the store that are within my price range would be a La Pavoni Mini, Saeco MC2002, Saeco Titan, or a Gaggia MM. There's a Gaggia MDF for $100 more, but I've already blown more than my budget.

As for beans, I use "Godfather" espresso from Fratello in Calgary, AB. I pick them up from my local coffee shop 5 hours away. They seem to be adequately fresh (definitely not stale), although I can't tell you the exact date they were roasted.

Assuming that you are using fresh beans (roasted in the last 10 days), there's no reason why you cannot make a good shot with this setup.


When I had a Gaggia Classic, it required a flush of 1-2oz to bring the water temperature down. I suggest that you try flushing 1oz at first, to see how it tastes.

To get your shot volume and timing right, you can also adjust your dose. For example, at the grinder setting that gives you a 39 second pour, reduce your dose by 2gm, and see where your timing/volume lands. Keep the same grinder setting, and adjust does until you are there. If you are getting to or below 14gm, try going to the coarser grinder setting and increasing your dose to get to the desired volume/timing.

I had better luck with blends that produced better ristrettos with my Gaggia. That may be because once the Gaggia produces 2oz from the boiler, the shot temperature gradient from start of shot to finish is very large.

So, if you have a fairly dark roast, try going with a higher dose (16-18gm), and a shot volume around 1oz. Flush before your shot, and wait for the boiler to recover.

Finally, how competent are you with your Stockfleth? Have you tried the WDT?

Mark

brokemusician77 wrote:As for beans, I use "Godfather" espresso from Fratello in Calgary, AB. I pick them up from my local coffee shop 5 hours away. They seem to be adequately fresh (definitely not stale), although I can't tell you the exact date they were roasted.

"They seem to be adequately fresh (definitely not stale)..." Hmmm... Months of research, ehh?
Which part of your musical gear would you bet on that? It it were me, I wouldn't put up a Lee Oscar harmonica with a broken reed... If there is no posted "Roasted On" date or they can't tell you when they were roasted, the safe bet is "Stale When Purchased."

In the meantime, to get the most out of the equipment you currently have, please:
- go to my website: http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
- Bookmark the main page, then:
- look in the RIGHT hand column for the "How To" section
- read #12: "HOME BARISTA'S GUIDE TO MAKING QUALITY ESPRESSO"

Thanks for your response. This is very helpful.

Dogshot wrote:When I had a Gaggia Classic, it required a flush of 1-2oz to bring the water temperature down. I suggest that you try flushing 1oz at first, to see how it tastes.

By "flush" do you mean a blank shot?

I don't have a scale, so I can't measure the dose accurately at the moment, other than by grinding into the bin and using the scoop.

The coffee is a medium roast. The same roast they use at my local cafe. They make great Lattes. Their espresso is ok. I actually used to pull some surprisingly nice shots with it on my old Hamilton Beach, of all things. In that case I had the coffee ground at the shop. Some of those shots were better than these, although they didn't have nearly this much crema.

As for the Stockfleth, I really have no way of knowing how well I'm doing it. I learned it from a video on Youtube. I haven't tried WDT, but I could.

Most helpful. Thank-you.

kk

Bushrod wrote:If you'd really spent a few months researching, you'd know that the Virtuoso is not very good for espresso.

You don't say how fresh your beans are or where you got them.

fizguy wrote:Shame on you for lying about doing a few months of research!

Randy G. wrote:"They seem to be adequately fresh (definitely not stale)..." Hmmm... Months of research, ehh?
Which part of your musical gear would you bet on that? It it were me, I wouldn't put up a Lee Oscar harmonica with a broken reed... "

Comments like these, although cathartic for you, really don't help to address the issues I'm facing. Nor do they encourage newbies like me to continue our efforts to improve our knowledge and technique by seeking out other users.

Thanks.

brokemusician77 wrote:As for the Stockfleth, I really have no way of knowing how well I'm doing it.

In that case, try the Stockfleths Move for Dummies. By the way, I recommend perusing the FAQs and Favorites. You'll find that most of the questions you'll have in the first few months of learning are already asked and answered there.

brokemusician77 wrote:Comments like these, although cathartic for you, really don't help to address the issues I'm facing. Nor do they encourage newbies like me to continue our efforts to improve my knowledge and technique by seeking out other users.

I agree, let's lighten up.

You may not have bought the perfect grinder for the money, but the Virtuouso is a perfectly adequate home espresso grinder. If you are "between settings" on shot time, it's not a tragedy, no matter what the peanut gallery says. Just grind between settings, start on 8 and flip it to 9 half way. (when doing this, always go from fine to coarse).

Now for the real problem -- which is you. You won't be able to make a decent shot of espresso for several months, no matter how much you read. It's a simple matter of experience. The only good news is that it doesn't take nearly as long as learning a musical instrument.

The best way to start is to get consistent on dosing and leveling. Buying a 0.1 gram scale helps, they cost about $12.50 on ebay right now. Your first goal is to make three shots in a row, not to drink, but just to see if they flow the same - same time for the first drop to appear, same time to go blonde, same time to get to 2 ounces. Once you can do that, you can start worrying much more productively about everything else.

Yes, flushing is the same as pulling a blank shot. This is important because Gaggias often run very hot, so the first couple of ounces of water that come out of the brew head are actually boiling. Water that hot will burn the coffee and ruin the flavor, leading to a very bitter shot. Run about two or three ounces through without the portafilter in place and watch the water as it leaves the brew head. If it's hissing and bubbling as it comes out, it's flash boiling. Run more water until it stops boiling, then run a bit more through. Now grind, distribute, tamp, lock and load, and pull the shot. It should be much better. If not, experiment with more or less flushing, or different timing between when you flush and when you pull the shot.

As for the issue of grinder quality, most people agree that the Virtuouso is not ideal for espresso, though I believe you can make it work for you with some perseverance. The problem is that it doesn't have fine enough adjustments to allow you to reallly dial in your shot time, which is why your shots run too fast on one setting and too slow on the next one. However, if you grind finer and tamp very lightly, you should be able to get an acceptable shot time.

Also, don't worry too much about the "Golden Rule" that a shot is supposed to run 25-30 seconds. Some shots taste great at 35 seconds or even more. Trust your tastebuds, not your stopwatch.

brokemusician77 wrote:By "flush" do you mean a blank shot?

I don't have a scale, so I can't measure the dose accurately at the moment, other than by grinding into the bin and using the scoop.
kk

Yes, a blank shot; you do not even need the pf in place.

You can pretend that every 8 beans = 1gm. I assume you are at least measuring the beans going into the grinder (e.g., 2.5 scoops of beans, or whatever). IF you are at the 15 second pour, then add 16 beans to your current amount, and see where your volume/timing lands. Continue to add/subtract until you are there.

Some machines do not produce good espresso when the puck expands to touch the brew screen during the brew process. As I recall, my Gaggia did not mind this at all, and so packing 18gm into the pf and having the puck touch the screen was not a problem. You know you have a large dose when the puck comes out very dry and in 1 piece.

Mark

These are all great suggestions folks. Thanks so much. I'll try these out over the next few days and see what comes with it.

I used to make great shots on a Hamilton Beach with a cheap Oster burr mill, but only after a lot of reading, experimenting, trying out new beans, and learning the idiosyncrasies of each machine. I assumed that I'd instantly be able to make better espresso, simply by buying a new setup. Your posts are a good reminder that I need to start all over again and learn the different quirks of each of these new machines. Within a month or two, I should be on the road toward much better espresso.

Thanks.

Randy G, I will check out the article you mentioned. The more I can read on this the better.

First, make sure that your coffee is freshly roasted, no more than a few weeks old. The beans should not appear uniformly oily or smell stale.

Second, make sure your machine is at the correct temperature. Allow it to warm up for a while before you use it. Perform a cooling flush by hitting the brew button with no portafilter for a few seconds.

Omit these steps for now:

brokemusician77 wrote:4. Gently tap the portafilter with the handle of the tamper.
5. Rotate the tamper with about 20lbs of pressure to polish the grinds
6. Flip the portafilter to drop off excessive grinds

In addition, as mentioned you will need to adjust your dose. You may want to try a different blend of coffee or a fresh bag of beans. Stale beans and different blends may give too quick a pour. This is the first thing to do. If you still have problems, you will need to reduce your dose, which you can do simply by timing your grinding into the portafilter, if you do not have a scale handy. Keep the grind around 8 (finer) but reduce your total dose by 50% to start.

brokemusician77 wrote:With the grinder on 9, I get a shot at around 15 sec. Sometimes it's blonded before that. with the grinder on 8 (finer grind), the shot comes in at around 39 sec. The shots at 15 sec. are sour (like bile). The shots at 39, are quite bitter.

Lastly, if the shots are still bitter, then try this trick: when you are ready to brew a shot, hit the "brew" button for a second and turn it off again, wait for 3-5 seconds and hit the button again and complete your cycle. This acts like a kind of pre-infusion and smooths out the shots.

Try this for some time until you become proficient with the machine. If you still have problems, save your money and buy a fancier machine.

Adrian

Great suggestions! Thanks again.

drdna wrote:If you still have problems, save your money and buy a fancier machine.

I think if it comes to that, I'll likely just throw in the towel. I love espresso, but I've already spent $700, and just don't feel that I can personally justify spending more than that, not that it wouldn't be worth it. Maybe 5 years down the road or something like that.

k

brokemusician77 wrote:Comments like these, although cathartic for you, really don't help to address the issues I'm facing. Nor do they encourage newbies like me to continue our efforts to improve our knowledge and technique by seeking out other users.
Thanks.

In regards to your coffee, you can pour water into the gas tank of a Ferrari, and while it still has the Ferrari logo on the hood its performance will be decidedly negated. The same with an espresso machine. The use of questionable coffee is going to make comments on any level of questionable value. Stale coffee dramatically will change the taste of the coffee- that should be obvious, but it will also dramatically affect the extraction process itself.

And two days of practice...? I have been at it for years and am still learning... a LOT! Making espresso is not simple, nor can the process be simply described in words.

Please, read my article on making espresso I linked above... here it is again:
- go to my website: http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
- Bookmark the main page, then:
- look in the RIGHT hand column for the "How To" section
- read #12: "HOME BARISTA'S GUIDE TO MAKING QUALITY ESPRESSO"
It is well over 12 typed pages of information that I wrote with folks like you specifically in mind. Read it and it WILL help you A LOT. There are many points to your original post that reflect that you have a long way to go. That's fine. We all start somewhere. Take the initiative to help find and solve some of your own problems. There are also many nuances to the process that you have not described that it would be hard for us to assist. Making espresso is not like warming a meal of leftovers in a microwave. The creation of Espresso is an art with many nuances.

As far as your in-depth research, most of us have been stating that you should not do your step #4:
"4. Gently tap the portafilter with the handle of the tamper."
And what does, "Tamp the beans at around 30-40lbs pressure," mean? have you actually used a scale? Does the tamping force matter? If you had done the research and reading around this site you would know that it does not matter. Anything from around 15 to 55 pounds will yield about the same result.

I have not spent the last 8 + years creating a non-commercial website filled with hundreds of pages of information, all designed to entertain and educate to sit and take that kid of attitude from anyone. The inference there is that you expect us to help you but you evidently have not taken the time to help yourself, then get pissed at our answers. If you want to learn, fine- open your mind and get educated. But if you want to continue the pissy attitude, good luck. Take the time to help yourself and have some patience and you will eventually improve to the capability level of your equipment. Now THAT was cathartic.

Will I be hearing from Dan? Operators are standing by!

brokemusician77 wrote:I think if it comes to that, I'll likely just throw in the towel. I love espresso, but I've already spent $700, and just don't feel that I can personally justify spending more than that, not that it wouldn't be worth it.

How much better off might you have been if you came here and asked, "I have $700 and want to make espresso at home. What should I get with my money?" ...? Instead it's, 'Here's what I bought. Help me make good espresso,' and then the answers are not to your liking...

Randy G., I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to come off as snotty, or with attitude. I do apologize. I will read your article, and am thankful for resources like this.

Although I have one or two similar articles on other forums, and on WholeLatteLove, I am more than willing to open my mind to a fresh perspective, and am thankful for your hard work. I certainly meant no disrespect. Text is a poor conveyor of tone.

I am thankful for the many, many good answers I've received from you all.

Research is only as good as the researcher. A Ph.D candidate researching American History will come up with results that are immensely more sophisticated than a grade 3, simply because they have more experience in knowing what to look for. Many of you are Ph.D's. I am clearly a grade 3.

Randy G. wrote:How much better off might you have been if you came here and asked, "I have $700 and want to make espresso at home. What should I get with my money?" ...? Instead it's, 'Here's what I bought. Help me make good espresso,' and then the answers are not to your liking...

I did consult users on other forums about my purchase, and they all agreed that it seemed like a great combination. I also read a number of posts on this site. I didn't join this forum until after it seemed that the advice I received was inadequate.

In short, months of research does not equal months of GOOD research. My bad. If there's more crow for me to eat on this, let me do it while it's fresh and tender.

Newbie humbled. Tail firmly placed between legs. Hat in hand.

Since this is a new purchase, I can return the grinder. Would there be a better recommendation for $200?

k

Whatever you do, don't give up!

The Le'lit PL53 is a little more than $200 but seems to get pretty good reviews.