HB wrote:Yikes, I think pairing a Gaggia Baby with Mazzer Major is just a tiny bit overkill.

Dan, the Mazzer will be there for the long haul. It will pair well with all of his upgrades and if bought used will be economical as well. My used Mazzer Mini cost 4 times what my used Gaggia Carezza cost.

This site is a great resource. I have received so many helpful tips from these same people responding to you so I am sure you will improve your drinks shortly. Let me tell you my story only because it is somewhat relevant to your situation.

I loved coffee forever but only somewhat recently saw what a difference freshly roasted beans from great suppliers and then home roasted could make in French press vacuum pots and drip. I had never made a home espresso before this past fall when realizing what good coffee was about also found heavenly espresso in great cafes like Blue Bottle and others. I had a Virtuoso grinder for my French press etc. and it is absolutely first rate for that purpose and I thought it would also serve my espresso needs until I NEEDED and chose to upgrade on my terms. I already spent way more then I expected on my Quickmill Anita and all the extras. Well, my experience with the Virtuoso was just about exactly as you described with its inability to fine tune the grind to the needs of the bean and the machine to get properly timed dosed and volume of shots. It was VERY frustrating and I though I would never get to where I could enjoy espresso like I did in good cafes. I "gave in" and bought a Compak K3 touch on the advice of the great people at Chris' Coffee and I instantly knew what everyone was saying when they said the grinder was more important in many respects then the machine. My home espresso is consistently excellent to the point where I could confidently serve coffee-lovers my drinks and know they will totally enjoy them as I do. Of course I am still a beginner and I'm sure my espresso will get better as my technique and experience with my equipment continues but rest assured there is hope for you too.

I would never try to tell another person what to spend or how to budget their money for anything and I think Jim Schulman's was spot on really. You can possible make do and live with the Virtuoso but it will never be one I think that will grow with you over the next months when you have more experience with your machine and different coffees. I think my Virtuoso is a great grinder and I use it every day to make a French press pot to put in my Zojirushi container to bring to work but I wake up using my Compak K3 to make a couple of espresso's before going to work. If you mostly want a grinder for espresso then I suggest returning the Virtuoso and taking the advice of others who know more then me about different choices you might have within a budget you can live with.

Good luck

sweaner wrote:Dan, the Mazzer will be there for the long haul. It will pair well with all of his upgrades and if bought used will be economical as well. My used Mazzer Mini cost 4 times what my used Gaggia Carezza cost.

The resale on high-end grinders is so good, I wouldn't worry about making the "absolute last purchase" right off. There's little cost in starting off smaller with a Mazzer Mini, for example, and working your way up. I would be hard pressed to discern the difference between the espressos made with a Super Jolly versus Major, doubly so if pulled on entry level gear.

Besides, if I had brought in a humongous grinder like the Mazzer Major into our kitchen and plunked it down next to a small espresso machine like my old Silvia, I would have developed heatstroke under my wife's glare. If one wishes to retain some level of marital bliss, one must move slowly...

brokemusician77 wrote:Comments like these, although cathartic for you, really don't help to address the issues I'm facing. Nor do they encourage newbies like me to continue our efforts to improve our knowledge and technique by seeking out other users.

Thanks.

My comment was tongue-in-cheek, just so you know. I agree that doubting your statement about doing research was not helpful and probably quite frustrating. I am new to this hobby also and I love it when an "old timer" welcomes me instead of making me feel stupid. Much to my disappointment I have read several posts leaning more toward the latter than the former.

And since you are in Canada, you should head over to Fratello in Calgary to see the new Slayer espresso machine (http://www.slayerespresso.com/). It is only around 500 km away and would be a fun weekend trip. I would do it if I were living that close.

Brewed some shots tonight with some very interesting results.

Seems the brew temperature may be one way to get my shots within the right range.

Even though I've been advised against some steps, for sake of consistency I brewed a couple exactly the same way. The only difference being that I ran a cooling flush right before pulling the shot. With the grinder on 8, I pulled a shot at about 30 sec. (I say about, because as luck would have it, I started the shot without starting my timer. I counted slowly to 30 and turned off the shot when it reached 2 oz. (I figure that most people count fast, so it was probably more like 28 sec.).

The crema looked good, although I probably should have stopped a little sooner due to blonding. The taste wasn't fantastic, but was in between bitter and sour. Only a little sour, and only a little bitter. With a little sugar, I could drink it as is. Actually, what I like to do with espresso sometimes is make what I call an "Air Canada". Basically an espresso macchiato with a little bit of pure Canadian maple syrup. (Aunt Jemima's will do in a pinch) It's delicious, especially with a piece of cheesecake. If I can learn to brew shots like this consistently, I think I'll be happy.

On a side note, when I turned the machine on and primed the boiler, I found that the water was already fairly warm. Even though the machine had been off for about 4 hours. (I understand you should run some water through the group right when you turn on the machine, every time you turn on the machine to prime it. Is that right?). Anyway, as I said, it was still warm after leaving the machine off for about 4 hours. From what I understand, the boiler is made of aluminum (maybe SS). It shouldn't retain heat like that. Should it? Weird.

drdna- As a full-time musician, I tour regularly and get to Calgary every few months. I am planning to hit up Fratello next time I'm there. If for nothing else than to get some fresh beans, and a nice ristretto. I also plan to hit Cafe Artigiano.

HB wrote:Besides, if I had brought in a humongous grinder like the Mazzer Major into our kitchen and plunked it down next to a small espresso machine like my old Silvia, I would have developed heatstroke under my wife's glare. If one wishes to retain some level of marital bliss, one must move slowly...

I'm a newbie as well (received my Gaggia Carezza as a Christmas Gift from my in-laws), but I've completely lucked out with my understanding husband. He's become a total enabler of my new espresso obsession, despite the fact that he himself doesn't drink coffee of any kind. I posted before about the Espro Toroid pitcher and custom engraved Reg Barber tamper he surprised me with. Well, this past Tuesday he surprised me with an early Valentines gift - a new shiny Macap M4 stepless grinder. I wanted to kiss him (eeeeeeek, great grinder!!!) and strangle him (he spent that much???) at the same time.

More in tune with the main topic of this thread, I'd like to compare what I've been able to achieve so far before, and after, the grinder upgrade. I started with a Capresso Infinity, which I think suffers from a similar problem as the OP's grinder. The grind is decently consistent, but the spacing between settings can be limiting. However, by varying my dose a bit I was able to land shots within the acceptable window, and the results were shots balanced between sour and bitter, but without much sweetness or chocolate/caramel flavors. I was happy - nearly all my shots made for a great (aka better than what the local coffee shops call a) latte. However, I knew that somewhere down the line I would like a new grinder. As another Gaggia owner, I can't stress enough how important it is to 1) let it heat up for sufficient time, and 2) do a cooling flush (or even two or three rounds of flush/wait if you have the time).

Enter hubby, and his tendency to spoil me (sometimes a wee bit too much). I powered up the Macap M4 and, before even pulling a shot, was surprised by how quiet it is. I used ~1.5 numbers above the zero point as a my starting point and started to dial in the grind. My first shot was fast, and as I dialed in the grind a little finer with each shot, I could definitely see and taste the improvements. And then, my God shot. My attempt to repeat it hasn't happened yet (as they say...user end of the handle), but I managed to get everything right (definitely with the aid of the better grinder), and that shot tasted like chocolate caramel syrup. After a few sips of it straight I decided I wanted to see how the improvements tasted in milk, so I made a cappuccino. Pure chocolate-tinged bliss. The memory of that shot has become all the motivation I need to keep practicing.

So, OP, my suggestion is just to keep on plugging with the equipment you have until YOU are satisfied that it's time and possible for something better. They say it's easier to learn to create great art if you have the best brushes, and I don't doubt it. Because with a great brush, you're guaranteed the right response when YOU do something the right way. But no brush can teach you that technique, and without technique a good brush paints like any other. So, we start with entry level equipment, and we get frustrated when our beginner level techniques are crossed with difficult to use gear. However, no matter what the gear is, on average our results will improve as our technique gets better, and we learn the hard way about the variables at play. Eventually, the machine becomes the limiting factor, as our technique has improved when the machine has not, and THAT is when we NEED (well, it could still be called want, but I'll go with need) the better equipment. I lucked out and hubby moved up the upgrade time table, but I could very well have gone along with my so-so grinder very happily until I was more confident in my own skills. I know I've yet to master consistency in my technique, which means I'll probably waste plenty of coffee adjusting my grind when it's *me* that needs adjusting!

Also, another poster here pointed out to me that as long as *you* are happy with the shots, that's all that really matters.

drdna wrote:And since you are in Canada, you should head over to Fratello in Calgary to see the new Slayer espresso machine (http://www.slayerespresso.com/). It is only around 500 km away and would be a fun weekend trip. I would do it if I were living that close.

I feel so inadequate There is, reportedly, a Slayer (3 group) installed at Cafe Beano in Calgary; that is less then 10 km from my house and I have yet to stop in.... and you're willing to drive (or at least willing to suggest that someone else drive ) 500 km to see one.

HB wrote:Besides, if I had brought in a humongous grinder like the Mazzer Major into our kitchen and plunked it down next to a small espresso machine like my old Silvia, I would have developed heatstroke under my wife's glare. If one wishes to retain some level of marital bliss, one must move slowly...

Thanks for the confidence boost Dan as I sit waiting for UPS to delivery my Mazzer Major... to put on the counter beside my Silvia. Sadly, the UPS truck is stuck in a blizzard; the road has been closed for the fourth day in a row

Today was a much better day. I pulled a couple of 2 oz. shots at 30 sec. I should have cut them off a bit sooner, around 25 sec. due to blonding, but for reference, I wanted to go a full 2 oz. The only real changes were the cooling flush, and I left out the tap between the tamp and the polish.

Randy, I read through about 6/8 of your article and in general haven't seen anything I haven't read already elsewhere. However your fresh perspective and your attention to detail was great, and there were a few subtleties I picked up that I'm sure will help. I noticed that at the finer grind setting, my grounds come out quite clumpy. I will try WDT tonight to see what difference that makes.

Feeling much more confidence, and much less buyer's remorse.

Thanks so much to everyone for your help.