Frustrated new user - Page 3

Top · by **kschendel** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:08 pm

brokemusician77 wrote:Since this is a new purchase, I can return the grinder. Would there be a better recommendation for $200?

Not for $200 unless you get lucky with a used one. The Cunill Tranquilo and the LeLit PL53 seem to be the usual suspects in the under-$300 range these days. Or, a hand grinder. Before you send the Virtuoso back, you might try recalibrating it according to the instructions on the Baratza web site (FAQ -> Virtuoso). It might make the difference between fiddly and unusable.

I assumed that I'd instantly be able to make better espresso, simply by buying a new setup.

Your assumption was not entirely mistaken. Where you went wrong was the dollar figure.

The exact numbers are arguable, but somewhere in the $2500-$3000 range for grinder plus machine is where you get to make better espresso "simply by buying a new setup".

Top · by **drdna** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:10 pm

Also, keep in mind it will take months to get used to your new espresso machine, and it is very small differences in technique like a small change in tamp, dose, an extra second of flushing, etc., the tilt of the steam wand, etc. that can have a big effect. Hence, the "art."

Regarding your grinder purchase, if your problem can be solved by changing ONE thing in your set-up, it is the grinder. I would return this grinder and get a better used one. Used grinders come up ALL the time at retailers like http://www.sweetmarias.com/ or http://www.chriscoffee.com/. Or you can get one on EBay for not very much, probably $200-300 for used Mazzer Major. That grinder will do pretty much just as good as any other commercial grinder out there, compared to what you have now, which is really better for drip coffee.

Adrian

Top · by **Randy G.** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:21 pm

brokemusician77 wrote:Randy G., I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to come off as snotty, or with attitude. I do apologize. I will read your article, and am thankful for resources like this.

The fact that my response didn't scare you of or cause an over-reaction is a very good sign, indeed. Very good!!

We all started at a beginning without realizing just how long this road is. As you will read on my website, back in late 2000, I started out think that spending $125 for an espresso machine and using my VERY cheap burr grinder that we had been using for flaxseed would be sufficient. Just a few short weeks later, my first invoice for the goods I bought (Silvia, Rocky, Hearthware precision roasted ) was over $800 as I remember (in current dollars I think that is about $1.3 Billion, but I was an art major). I used Rocky and Silvia for about 6½ years. When I bought them I had never even tasted a straight espresso! Now I work in the coffee industry and my current espresso machine and grinder combo sell for about what I paid for my car.

I had been a writer for some time before that, and so as soon as I started I began my website. Again, without any sense where it would take me, it is now over 100 chapters of bloggish writing, documenting the same journey upon which you now begin. What began as a fun hobby has become an obsession. Heck- I own 7 coffee roasting appliances (Had 8 but sold one... not counting the Poppery popcorn machines I have given away and sold).

In those 8+ years I have made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot... well, that's an understatement because when I started I basically knew nothing about "espresso." Depending on how much motivation you have you can go as far as you like as well.

And as far as this forum goes, you need to take into account that it is home of some scientists who apply what they know to coffee. One actually used an electron microscope to examine ground coffee in a grinder review to quantify particle size distribution! Another invented and is marketing a highly regarded instrument to measure brew temperature of water where it meets the coffee in espresso machines. me? I have written two owners manuals for two highly respected coffee appliances, and created a website for the manufacturer for a coffee roaster manufacturer, and still I consider myself on the lower rungs of the espresso ladder of knowledge, especially around here.

So if you are serious, open a cold one or pull a hot one, sit back, and relax. It's a long road and none of us are in a hurry to get to the end of it.

Top · by **ntwkgestapo** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:28 pm

Keith, I've been searching for great espresso for 20+ years now. Tried various Krups machines (my first was the infamous steam toy! and I actually made some fairly decent espresso with it!). Currently I've got the predecessor of your grinder (a Starbucks Barista Burr Grinder, was imported as the SBUX Barista and the Solis 120 [I think]). Had nothing but trouble with it, BUT, have actually gotten it to make an acceptable grind a time or two! Currently I'm using a Le'Lit PL53 (available from 1st Line for a bit over $200 now) which is a VERY good "dedicated" grinder. It's good for espresso OR drip OR french press, etc, but the effort to change from one type to another is WAY too great (feels like 100's of turns of the grind adjustment knob, but probably in the 60-70 turn range to go from 'spresso to drip!). I use EITHER my SBUX Barista espresso machine (made by Saeco for Starbucks a while back) OR, my current favorite, my Gaggia Factory 106 (a minimalist lever machine, actually made by La Pavoni FOR Gaggia a while back, now discontinued in favor of the Gaggia Achille, an in-house design)...

Don't give up! The Baratza should work, but others DO work better! The biggest thing, beyond the mantra "Fresh Beans, FRESH BEANS, FRESH BEANS!!!!!!!!!!" is to work to get consistent. Minimize the variables as much as you can. Get your dose correct (you can get a cheap 0.1g scale from various places. Ebay or even Harbor Freight has one.) and get your dose grind, distribution and amount consistent THEN work on getting your brewing consitent... Experiment with different flushes, different volumes, etc..

Don't let all these curmudgeons get you down (geez, usually I'M the curmudgeon!

). We ALL started somewhere and we're ALL still searching for the perfect cup! (some are closer than others!

)

Top · by **another_jim** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:29 pm

brokemusician77 wrote:Since this is a new purchase, I can return the grinder. Would there be a better recommendation for $200?

Yes. Noisy, primitive, much better gind quality or quiet and civilized, somewhat better grinder quality

Top · by **portamento** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:03 pm

I echo the previous advice that the Gaggia machines need a quick cooling flush before pulling a shot. When your machine is fully-heated, you're going to see some steam sputter out of the grouphead before calming down. This is what you don't want hitting the puck. You're going to have to experiment with this for a while because the Gaggias, in addition to overheating at the top of the heating cycle, have a small boiler... so it's easy to overflush and pull the shot too cool as well.

I would definitely remove the portafilter tap from your routine. I would also eliminate the 20 lb polish. Both of these steps are just going to unseat or fracture the puck, leading to channeling. If you want to polish the puck, do it with no pressure but the weight of the tamper.

Another Gaggia tip related to the tiny boiler... make sure you are priming it... This means removing any airspace at the top of the boiler by pumping a little water with the steam valve open.

And please do not hesitate to try new beans via mail-order. One of the great joys of being a home barista is having incredibly fresh beans delivered to your door. Stale beans are only going to frustrate and confuse you. A Canadian roaster that is very sought after in the U.S. is http://www.49thparallelroasters.com/

Finally, on dosing... you can roughly eyeball your dose based on volume. If your fully-tamped puck has about 8-12mm of clearance from the top of the basket, you are probably in the range for decent espresso. Dosing science is a rabbit hole, but that will be a start.

Top · by **brokemusician77** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:17 pm

Being in Canada, I'm limited right now in terms of places I can purchase from. Our dollar is weaker than yours right now, so a $200 grinder south of the border will cost me $250, plus customs fees, etc.

Even with ebay, this is an issue. 6 months ago, I would have been laughing. The only real option in Canada is the place I bought from, http://www.espressotec.com. They only have a few other grinders in this range, as you can see from their website: http://www.espressotec.com/store/...le=h&idcategory=85

I really can't spend more than I did right now, and as I said, I don't really feel comfortable spending more until I'm way further down the road. I'd rather get something for the same price or cheaper than the Virt, or work with what I have. (Really, I'm not TRYING to be difficult.)

On a positive note. I tried the cooling flush, coupled with the suggestion to pre-infuse the grounds. I think I'm on to something there. Previously, when I brewed a shot at a finer setting, the flow would start well, and then the crema would come bubbling out of the spout. after the cooling flush, it seemed to come out more evenly. Perhaps the increase in pressure, coupled with water that was already too hot meant created steam in the in the grouphead, which had to come out first. Does that even make sense?

Also, when looking at the difference in grounds between "8" & "9", I see very little difference in size. Perhaps it's not the grinder that's causing this at all?

As for bean freshness, I have loads of rusty (not blonde or white) crema coming through. If the beans were less than fresh, the crema shouldn't look like that. Should it? Even with a 12 second shot, I've got about an inch of crema, even after the cup has settled for 30 sec.

Top · by **portamento** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:30 pm

If you're getting rust-colored crema that persists in the cup, your beans are probably pretty fresh.

Do you ever make it up to Saskatoon? When I was first getting started in this hobby I didn't have access to a local cafe that could pull an excellent shot of espresso, which made for a slower learning curve.

Here's a couple of quality-oriented places in Saskatoon:

http://www.museocoffee.com/
http://www.caffesola.ca/

Top · by **brokemusician77** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:35 pm

I should also mention that I took apart the grinder last night to recalibrate it, and everything looks fine. As I said in my last post. I'm starting to think the brewing temperature is the issue, not the grinder.

Top · by **Randy G.** on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:40 pm

brokemusician77 wrote:Also, when looking at the difference in grounds between "8" & "9", I see very little difference in size. Perhaps it's not the grinder that's causing this at all?

There shouldn't be much of a difference. With a good espresso grinder, one "click" can be around 0.001" (0.0254mm) in difference in space between the burrs.

As for bean freshness, I have loads of rusty (not blonde or white) crema coming through. If the beans were less than fresh, the crema shouldn't look like that. Should it? Even with a 12 second shot, I've got about an inch of crema, even after the cup has settled for 30 sec.

Crema color and amount in and of itself is not an accurate indicator of coffee freshness or espresso quality. Sure, very pale, thin crema means there is a problem, but dark, rich, thick crema is not an indication of quality coffee beans or quality espresso. I have pulled shots with thick, dark, rich crema that I sipped and couldn't spit out fast enough.

I should mention here that, it is an unfortunate truth that the "beginners'" espresso set up such as you have (and many that are more expensive) are the most difficult to use to produce good espresso. They operate in the widest range of parameters in areas where narrow control is needed and they offer little to nothing in the way of giving the user a way to control those parameters. As you are learning, brew temperature is just one of those. So that's the bad news. The good news is that over the next year or three, if you stick to it, this machine will cause you to be very careful and precise as you hone your technique, and you will learn about the things you can control and those you can't. If and when you get a 'real" machine and quality grinder you will be amazed at the difference, and you will have the skills it takes to get the best from them.

What kind of music do you do? What do you play?
See about me here:
http://www.myspace.com/RandyGBlues
and my group
http://www.myspace.com/PhatBoyzBlu

We are working on a self-produced CD at the moment.


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