First shot of morning always the best

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
JavaRanger
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#1: Post by JavaRanger »

So I have a Profitec Pro 700 and a Forte Grinder. I let the machine warm up for 30 mins, the grind setting is set from the day before, same as dose. All I do is take the portafilter out of the group, wipe dry, load and tamp.

That first shot is always the most balanced, not sour, not acidic. I flush, put the portafilter back on the group wait a few mins the. Repeat the above for 2nd, 3rd, Ect and boom shot is sour or bitter...

I just don't get it. Ive noticed this all week. I though well maybe temp drop? So I raise the PID, nope no luck there...

Yes I watched every video, read every post. Today I adjusted the grind a bit finer on the 3rd shot and it helped, but I still can't pull a shot like the first one...

Bkultra
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#2: Post by Bkultra »

Have you tried to eliminate yourself as the variable? Could it be the first shot has an affect on your palate? Trying drinking water between the shots or eat a cracker. Do you have this problem at other locations or on other equipment? (Like a café)

JavaRanger (original poster)
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#3: Post by JavaRanger (original poster) »

I actually have been asking my wife the last 3 days and she agrees. I was wondering if it was something to do with the grinder? Also, the first shot is not super, hot but seems to be on pair with the 2nd and 3rd.

So its not temp...I flushed after the 1st shot and waited 15 mins...still no good. Wondering if maybe the grind setting is slipping?

brianl
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#4: Post by brianl »

I wouldn't expect the forte to be slipping like my Vario would. It could be old coffee that might be stuck in the grind shoot might be mixing things up. Did you ever think that the flush after the first shot will heat up the brass in the group and make subsequent shots, well over 15m later, that much hotter? This is why some people advocate a flush before and after each shot.

JavaRanger (original poster)
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#5: Post by JavaRanger (original poster) »

Maybe we like the stale/ coffee that still in the Burrs? Huh...well that would make our bean purchases cheaper... lol

This was prob the first time since I had the forte that i thought...I wonder what this would taste like if I bought the K30 Vario...

So if the machine is warming up with the porafiler in the Group for 30 mins...then I flush after the shot...wait 15 mins for the next shot with the portafilter in the group I would think that make these even from the first shot.

Its been driving me beans...I mean nuts that I cant figure this out.

I think I am just going to but a few pounds of Red Bird a make a ton of shots till I figure it out...but I went through a half pound on Sunday...and I couldn't get to the bottom of it...

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uscfroadie
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#6: Post by uscfroadie »

Michael,

Are you performing a warming flush before you pull your first shot of the day? If not, I think your problem may be that your PID is set too high.

If you are going from a dead start to pulling your first shot 30 minutes after your machine is turned on, your grouphead will be at a lower temp than your successive shots, contributing the inconsistency you are seeing. 30 minutes on a PIDd E61 is a decent amount of time to warm up, but the grouphead will be at a lower than desired temp. If your PID is set too high, the first shot might be pulled at the right temp because water from your brew boiler, although too hot, is being cooled by a grouphead that is idling a little low. After the first shot it's now warmed up and ready to go, but your second (and third, etc.) will be pulled at a higher than desirable temp as the brew boiler's high temp is not being cooled as it was on the first shot by the grouphead.

To test, without touching the PID, tomorrow morning walk up to the machine and flush 3 or so ounces, as what you would use for your first shot. Wait your normal amount of time in-between shots and then pull your first shot of the day when you would normally be pulling your second. Pull your third when you'd normally pull your second, and so on. If you no longer see the variance, it's not your grinder.

If my assumption is correct, lower your PID a few degrees and perform warming flushes to stabilize the grouphead before pulling your first shot.

Hope this helps.
Merle

emradguy
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#7: Post by emradguy »

I agree with Merle. That was my first thought after reading your first post, and nothing said since has changed that.
LMWDP #748

Moxiechef
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#8: Post by Moxiechef »

You could also test your grinder by grinding all three shots and then brewing the second ground shot first. It's probably not the grinder but this would eliminate it from the equation.

JavaRanger (original poster)
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#9: Post by JavaRanger (original poster) »

uscfroadie wrote:Michael,

Are you performing a warming flush before you pull your first shot of the day? If not, I think your problem may be that your PID is set too high.

If my assumption is correct, lower your PID a few degrees and perform warming flushes to stabilize the grouphead before pulling your first shot.

Hope this helps.
Moxiechef wrote:You could also test your grinder by grinding all three shots and then brewing the second ground shot first. It's probably not the grinder but this would eliminate it from the equation.
Thanks Guys. I can't remember if I perform a warming shot, maybe not...its hard for me to function in the AM with out my espresso...duh... :shock:

I will try both of these and see what works. The warming does make sense...but for the CQ my PID is set for 198 per what they recommend. Could this mean that my PID is not correct? When I flush its usually after I pull the shot. Should I flush right before I pull one?

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boar_d_laze
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#10: Post by boar_d_laze »

JavaRanger wrote:The warming does make sense...but for the CQ my PID is set for 198 per what they recommend. Could this mean that my PID is not correct? When I flush its usually after I pull the shot. Should I flush right before I pull one?
Ideally you want the group, group head, and brew water all temped to the same temperature. Your machine has an E-61, and E-61s in DBs run a little cool (as an absolute and also compared to saturated and/or independently heated groups).

You put the system into equilibrium by flushing an ounce or two of water from the brew tank through the group.

The period of equilibrium is finite. You need to repeat the "warming flush" every so often as the group loses energy to the environment. I don't have an E-61 DB and don't know what the interval is; I could guess but you might as well get the skinny from someone who actually knows. Oh, wotthehell. Fifteen minutes.

As it stands, as you warming the group with your first shot, the group is cooling the brew water. If you pull a successive shot after a brief interval, you'll pull with warmer water and the shot will be bitter. If you pull after a long delay, you'll pull with cooler water and the shot will be sour.

Hope this makes it understandable,
Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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