This is not a new issue... as some will recall... I let it die, and now I'm starting to get interested in fixing it once and for all since I believe my machine and grinder are more than adequate.

Grinder being an older Elektra MXCS (or something like that, it's a large, commercial grinder that looks silly in a domestic kitchen!)

Here's the deal:

Too fast extractions, usually lighter blonde color. 1 click on the grinder finer typically chokes the machine, even with a light tamp. If I leave the grind alone and lean on the tamp (major lean, way more than 30-40lbs tamp) I can slow the extraction some, but even then it's still too fast.

So that's the mode that I've been in for months. I drink lattes, so they provide a lot of forgiveness, hooray. I want to move on.

Tonight I tried two things, at the same time. bad I know. But the results maybe might help someone help me with my problem.

I decreased the dose and made the grind finer.

Round 1: Wow, same tamp, finer grind, and didn't choke the machine. Flow was still fast, blonde, and thin.

Round 2: Well, hey, this is working well, so lets make it one more click finer. Dose was a little larger the first time, and that choked the machine. Backed off on the dose and the flow was still fast (not as fast as the last 6 months tho), but the flow was still very thin, and color to me was very blonde.

Today's experiment is with Sept 30th bagged coffee (Element 114 from Barefoot), that was opened today.

Last point, the machine's brew pressure gauge, with the blank "plate" (brain fart here), installed, reads just under 10bar.

I certainly think part of my issues have been overdosed. But I think I have other demons as well... there's no reason that I shouldn't be able to get a reasonable, thick, flow from this machine and coffee... At least, I believe this to be true.

Thanks in advance!

What you are describing can't happen with a commercial espresso grinder (or even home espresso grinders) if the grinder is working and the coffee is even semi-fresh, i.e less than 6 weeks old. Either the grinder needs new burrs, or realigned ones, or you are doing it or seeing it wrong.

BTW, on an E61, the pre-infusion takes around 10 seconds; so not seeing even one drop for the first ten seconds after turning on the pump is not a choke, it's normal operation.

BTW, on an E61, the pre-infusion takes around 10 seconds; so not seeing even one drop for the first ten seconds after turning on the pump is not a choke, it's normal operation.

I've always been somewhat confused by this - So does this 10 seconds count towards the extraction time for a 25-30 second pour?

I have 3 sets of burrs... I assume the only useful way I would know if they need to be replaced is to take it to a repair place, or hope that there's someone in the bay area that's knowledgeable enough to look at them and tell me.

And having them re-aligned?! Yowza. I can;t imagine what that would entail.

Thanks

Most of the Elektra grinders are rebranded MACAP's, you can see the lineup at Elektras web page. If it is any of these, it should be capable of grinding espresso with no problem. Did you get the grinder new or was it used? Without seeing your process it is hard to day but what you are describing could be from massive channeling, worn burrs, bad coffee or bad technique. Do you have a gram scale, can you weigh your dose?

Light crema can be due to low temp What is your brew temperature?

I time from the first drop. The range is ~20-40 seconds.

How do you measure your dose? Volume? Time? Weight?

Is the showerscreen clearly visible in the spent puck? If not, the the puck should be 'soupy' if you're grinding fine enough.

Since you have 3 sets of burrs, was a set replaced? Replacement is a 'clean room' operation and the burrs must be evenly tightened.

cannonfodder wrote:Most of the Elektra grinders are rebranded MACAP's, you can see the lineup at Elektras web page. If it is any of these, it should be capable of grinding espresso with no problem. Did you get the grinder new or was it used? Without seeing your process it is hard to day but what you are describing could be from massive channeling, worn burrs, bad coffee or bad technique. Do you have a gram scale, can you weigh your dose?

It's the MXPC. Used.

I do not have a scale, though I think I should rectify that since this is now a re-occuring problem... though I doubt I'll use it much, at least we'll know what my normal dose is.

I dose into a small dish of sorts, and throw that into the ridiculously oversized hopper ... Grind that into the PF, level off the top, and tamp. I "level" in such a way that the top of the untamped puck is a weebit concave, which matches the convex-ness of my tamper.

I don't tap or knock or anything on the PF. Dose, level, tamp, lock, and pull.

Someone asked about temp: The machine says 216*, and my understanding from reading is that it reads about 10* higher on the display than what hits the puck. I have no way to measure this, but the incup temp of the espresso doesn;t seem particularly off from what I get at Barefoot, so I'm not overly worried about it.. I think it should be in the ballpark for "decent", and if I ever get the rest of this figured out I can tweak then to make it even better than decent

cafeIKE wrote:Is the showerscreen clearly visible in the spent puck? If not, the the puck should be 'soupy' if you're grinding fine enough.

Since you have 3 sets of burrs, was a set replaced? Replacement is a 'clean room' operation and the burrs must be evenly tightened.

showerscreen is clearly visible on the puck when I dose as described above. when I "underdose" from that procedure then the puck ends up being soupy/wet looking.

Replacement was done by yours truly, in the kitchen. I made an effort to tighten evenly however, but who knows how successful that effort was. How important is this?

Maybe I'll talk to one of the baristas at Barefoot and see if I can talk them into trying to pull a decent shot on my machine.. Or maybe there's a bay-area espresso guru around here that would want to check out the VBM, and help me out at the same time

No big surprise to anyone here, I burned through a bag of coffee today already, just trying to get something respectable tasting (or even looking for that matter, lol) ... Not successful. Swill.

buzzmc wrote:showerscreen is clearly visible on the puck when I dose as described above. when I "underdose" from that procedure then the puck ends up being soupy/wet looking.

So....?

Tamp, lock, remove- if there is a mark from the shower screen you used too much coffee. If the machine has a center screw that protrudes, a small mark is OK. More than that and you rick fracturing the tamped puck when locking and that causes channeling, thin body, and early blonding.

I do not know why, but my pucks are somewhat soupy and wet on top as well if removed immediately after a pull. Funny though, I don't ever taste the pucks... I only drink the espresso and it has been excellent...

Randy G. wrote:Tamp, lock, remove- if there is a mark from the shower screen you used too much coffee. If the machine has a center screw that protrudes, a small mark is OK. More than that and you rick fracturing the tamped puck when locking and that causes channeling, thin body, and early blonding.

Locked, loaded, unloaded, and no marks. Did that several times w/my normal dose just now... So that's good news at least.

Randy G. wrote:So....?
... If the machine has a center screw that protrudes, a small mark is OK. More than that and you rick fracturing the tamped puck when locking and that causes channeling, thin body, and early blonding.

The machine is a Vibiemme Double Domo. No Screw.

We've already dismissed the hitting the shower screen on an e61 It's a non issue. Try it.

buzzmc wrote:Replacement was done by yours truly, in the kitchen. I made an effort to tighten evenly however, but who knows how successful that effort was. How important is this?

Extremely. See Burrs, Carriers, Micrometers & Math...

216°F maybe a bit low. Try 220°-224°F

Well, I did two things this morning. I upped the temp just 1 tick, so it reads 221 now (I think 216 was incorrect, it was 219).

I also adjusted the pstat(?), so that backflushed shots read 9bar now.

First shot sucked.

Second shot however had a lot of promise. I would typically have thought I'd choked the machine, but I waited a bit, and slowly got some big dark drips form the spots... And the color lightened much more gradually than typically.

Time will tell... Maybe I have a bad tamp procedure and I got lucky... Maybe these two changes helped considerably... Note the first shot I didn;t tamp as hard as I was fearing choking the machine, and the machine wasn't warmed up anyway, etc. It was doomed from the getgo.

It takes 52 minutes for the e61 on the Vibiemme to reach temperature.
Use a timer so it's ready and waiting.

Tamping has almost no effect. If the machine chokes, it's either too much coffee or too fine a grind.
A scale will do wonders for your dose consistency.

It sounds like you are loading the grinder per shot, rather than 'filling' the hopper. About 1~2g of coffee remains in the grind chamber. When you add beans the next day, these day old, stale grinds end up in the bottom of your basket. Try grinding ¼-½ dose before your first shot in the morning to clear yesterday's detritus.

FWIW, anytime the grinder sits more than 15 minutes, I clear it with ¼ dose into the bin.

cafeIKE wrote:It sounds like you are loading the grinder per shot, rather than 'filling' the hopper. About 1~2g of coffee remains in the grind chamber. When you add beans the next day, these day old, stale grinds end up in the bottom of your basket. Try grinding ¼-½ dose before your first shot in the morning to clear yesterday's detritus.

FWIW, anytime the grinder sits more than 15 minutes, I clear it with ¼ dose into the bin.

I do load per shot, but I also dose out a bit of grinds onto a plate that I never use to "clear" the chamber... Only time I don;t do that is when I'm pulling multiple shots while entertaining.

Tamping has almost no effect. If the machine chokes, it's either too much coffee or too fine a grind.
A scale will do wonders for your dose consistency.

Really? This seems contrary to everything I'd read previously when I got into this hobby. (tamping is almost irrelevant)

buzzmc wrote:I do load per shot, but I also dose out a bit of grinds onto a plate that I never use to "clear" the chamber... Only time I don;t do that is when I'm pulling multiple shots while entertaining.

How do you calibrate the 'waste' amount. I recently did a test using the MC4 and a 0.1s timer. The spout is cleaned with a special tool to remove as much residual grind as possible after every shot. In the first 1.0 second the MC4 will dump between 1 and 2g.

Since the How Important is Tamping? I've successfully demonstrated to e61 noviciates {Vibiemme}. They're amazed that there's no difference between tamped and untamped.

buzzmc,

I just received my Vibiemme DoubleDomo and have similar issues. In fact two well schooled coffee friends spent 6 hours trying to dial in my machine, but to no avail. A new machine arrived just yesterday and my third shot out was much closer to what I was looking for taste/consistency wise. While I'm still a ways off in getting a consistent shot, I feel like there is light at the end of the tunnel (and I hope it's not a train).

The other challenge I had was steaming milk. This is not my first rodeo and while I did expect a bit of a learning curve with a new machine, it took way longer than expected.

On Sunday I'm going to spend a good portion of the day experimenting with the machine. I'll post my results if you are interested.

I surely concur with Ian's recommendation to "get a scale" - it is a very inexpensive tool to, at least, eliminate one variable in the espresso process. I sorta like the Cen-Tech scales that Harbor Freight sells - they are easily readable without a backlight and take AAA batteries.

I grind directly into a spare cappy cup, do a vigorous WDT in that cup and then spoon the grinds into a basket resting on the scale. I use 15g in a ridgeless LM basket and have lots of those baskets to satisfy my cappy cravings in the AM. The empty, single spout, springless PF is always in the machine. I tamp the basket after placing it in another PF on a rubber mat. I've read Ian's great post on "How Important is Tamping" and feel that it is better that I do the tamp rather than have the dispersion screen do the tamp.
For sure, a lot depends on the routine to which you have become accustomed but I would say that leveling and distribution are far easier with a basket alone vice a basket in a PF.

It is working for me. Try this set your pid 22F higher than you want your shot to be, so if you are shooting for 200, set the pid at 222, 197 at 219. Let the machine heat for one hour, don't touch it. Walk up, flush the group for 4 seconds, remove the portafilter and prepare your shot, flush the group for 2 seconds, lock in your portafilter and pull your shot. This is half way through the extraction. It will steam quite nicely as well, but does take a little practice. I blew this one, got some bubbles in it at the very end.




I am using my home roast at around 16 grams, haven't measured yet, I tune by taste then get out the Scace and scale. Grinder is a Cimbali Max.

cafeIKE wrote:We've already dismissed the hitting the shower screen on an e61

"We"?

Maybe I have misinterpreted your statement which I have quoted above... I have dismissed ALLOWING the coffee to hit the shower screen on my E-61 before the pull, yes, if that's what you mean. I had a lot of problems with puck fracturing and channeling until I lowered my dose so that the coffee did NOT hit the shower screen before the pull. Since I adopted that dose amount I have had virtually perfect pulls, every day for over five weeks and still counting. So if you mean that the coffee shows sings of touching the screen AFTER the pull has completed and the PF removed, that is a different situation and not what I was discussing.

Randy G. wrote:Tamp, lock, remove- if there is a mark from the shower screen you used too much coffee.

The statement is an admonition.
It maybe applicable with some grinders, coffees and experience levels, but it is not an absolute.

cannonfodder wrote:It is working for me. Try this set your pid 22F higher than you want your shot to be, so if you are shooting for 200, set the pid at 222, 197 at 219. Let the machine heat for one hour, don't touch it. Walk up, flush the group for 4 seconds, remove the portafilter and prepare your shot, flush the group for 2 seconds, lock in your portafilter and pull your shot. This is half way through the extraction. It will steam quite nicely as well, but does take a little practice. I blew this one, got some bubbles in it at the very end.

Still haven't gotten a scale... Maybe I'll stop by one of the cooking shops today on teh way home and see if I can find something.

I tried this, I get my same mediocre results. Bah. It's making me wonder now just how well my tamper needs to fit the basket in order to not have lots of puck-related issues. Tonight I'll try and take a pic of the puck and post it, but I think the last one I looked at was fairly obvious that there was channeling in a few spots around the edges.

While the PF's 58mm, and the tamper's 58mm, or that's what the respective literature says, my tamper's about 1mm smaller than the basket... I think I have a +size basket and a -size tamper

I have tried tamping NSEW, as well as tamping all around the edge to try and make sure things are even, and have had some better luck with that, but not enough to be useful.. But definitely better.

Should I even think about getting new basket(s) and a tamper that matches them from the same place? Tamper's from Thor fwiw, but like I said, its definitely smaller than my current basket.