cafeIKE wrote:Of course, it could have been the extra particulates from the fires

Here in Southern California, this week was an excellent opportunity to experience the very last flavor on the Ted Lingle/SCAA Flavor Wheel: "Ashy." He categorizes it as a "dry distillation." You normally don't reach it until the most over-extracted drop of your over-extracted coffee reaches the cup. Yum!

So this always chokes the machine. But this time I let it go for a while. finally something hits the cup (likely time elapsed, 30-45 sec before a drop made it to the cup).

I let it go for a while more.... Certainly not a textbook shot.

Results:

Color much better.
Taste much better.
Temp pretty low... And this is into one of those clear, double walled bodum cups.

So I'm sure I'm missing a ton of variables that are needed, but this makes me wonder if the pressure is significantly off on the gauge on my machine - But maybe I'm incorrectly assuming pressure affects flow...

And I have no idea why the temp was low. It was a lukewarm shot at best, but it also took forever to get into the cup, so maybe this is not much of a concern. Certainly my faster shots are much hotter than this.

Ahh, the classic ultra-ristretto.

I think they're easy to pull (obviously), but you sacrifice a lot--while the shots are, indeed unobjectionable and indeed sometimes rather nice, I think you'll find, when you experience it, that a nicely done normale, or even a normal ristretto, will have a lot more interest and nuance to it. As far as the temperature--you said you didn't even get drops for 30+ seconds. A slow shot means more time to sit out in the cool air, to cool off in the cup, while more is brewing. Such a shot is so slow that it cools off while it's brewing a lot more than a normale would.

I doubt there is anything wrong with your machine. You just bought one of the best grinders money can buy, and you have one of the nicest home machines money can buy. Let's just say it's all your fault.

You need patience and more analysis of yourself and your coffee--less of your equipment. You paid a lot of money to do just that, and you ought to enjoy that. You have a dial to adjust temperature, and a dial to adjust grind. Get your dosing consistent, and go forth and make espresso. Carefully. You've got nothing left but self-doubt now... the blessing and curse of such nice toys...

3 bags later, much frustration has been at least temporarily relieved.

I've been coarsening (?) up the grind slowly, and I think I've got it now to where I need to play with the temp on the machine for this particular bean - But I pulled 4 drinks this evening with all of them being a much different extraction than I'm used to. 3 latte's and I pulled an espresso for myself, and the epsresso was drinkable for sure... I think maybe a tad hot is all.

Richer, thicker, darker pulls. One night does not make success, but I'm betting/guessing that this won;t change much.. At least that was the plan for purchasing this grinder anyway. I'll be uber happy if this ends up being true.

What's more: The old grinder's grinds appear and feel finer than the new one, but I couldn't get shots to pull slowly/correctly. Pretty interesting.

I'm feeling a lot less frustrated now - Thanks to all for the help.

What temp are you running?

PID reads 223 right now, which was a setting recommended when I started having issues... And I've never read that someone has an answer for the temp drop from the PID readout to what gets to the puck.. But people were guessing it was around 10*, which should mean that my temp's still somewhat high.

I'm running at 102*C.. I wish I could get ahold of a Scace to test it, but haven't yet.

This is what another owner told me...

Still working on it. Set your PID +31 degrees over what you want your brew temperature to be and flush 10 ounces of water through the group before you remove the portafilter and start preparing your shot. That should get you the temperature you are looking for.

+31.. Yowza. 203+31=234, so I'm way under.

Complicated little concoctions these are.

I forgot to add YMMV

networkcrasher wrote:I forgot to add YMMV

Well that's just not right

Last night I tried 234 on the display, but I think the heater turned off for some reason on my machine... The pull was dishearteningly light in color, and I tasted it anyway, which then made a lot of sense as it was barely lukewarm.

I'd love it if I could compress time and figure this out in short order, lol.

Just tried mine at 231 and it seemed like the pull was thin, but didn't taste it as it was a shot for the wife's latte. I turned it back down to 221 as the temp I was getting on my grouphead adapter looked pretty high. Just wish I could rent a scace!

networkcrasher wrote:I turned it back down to 221 as the temp I was getting on my grouphead adapter looked pretty high. Just wish I could rent a scace!

Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter converges on the same brew temperature a Scace would register during the last 10 seconds. You could calibrate simply by pulling garbage shots through the same puck, noting the temperature around the 20 second mark. From Monitoring Brew Temperature using E61 thermocouple adaptor:


Temperature within the valve chamber exit (blue) versus thermofilter (red)

Thanks Dan! I don't think I have ever seen that graph. Definitely will keep that in mind now to dial in my temp.

According to Stefano the temperature differential between the readout and the grouphead is 22 degrees F. So a reading of 223 equals 201F.

I bought my VBM double from Stefano and he has been just fantastic. The transaction was flawless and he replies promply and fully to any questions.

Jerry

I've heard the same thing from Jim at 1st-line, and have heard many good things about Stefano as well. Either way I'd be happy dealing with either vendor as they are great with pre and post sale support.

I set mine back to 221 and am waiting on it to equalize this afternoon, so I'll see how that does. I just changed it back to *F after having it on *C for quite a long time, so I'm kind of testing myself over again.

HB wrote:Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter converges on the same brew temperature a Scace would register during the last 10 seconds. You could calibrate simply by pulling garbage shots through the same puck, noting the temperature around the 20 second mark

Repeated shots on the same puck works for two shots max. Better idea to buy a bag of cheap supermarket coffee and use that for no taste temp studies.

FWIW, 223°F works nicely with a short, couple of seconds, screen clean flush before building the shot if you like shots a l'Italiano.

The PID displayed temperature is relevant ONLY if the machine has sat for a while and the brew circuit is in equilibrium. A very slight breeze across the group from an open lite or A/C system can cool the group by a couple of degrees, the boiler PID indicating set point all the while.

cafeIKE wrote:FWIW, 223°F works nicely with a short, couple of seconds, screen clean flush before building the shot if you like shots a l'Italiano.

I'm curious what this means

So far results in the cup are better @ 223 than @ 234. I think I may be able to grind even finer still and tamp lighter, but I am gaining on getting much better results.

Certainly the syrupy/creaminess of my shots are consistently better, and color is darker - Both of these are massive improvements. I think after I got the grinder "set" in the ballpark anyway I've only pulled one suspect shot, but that was sold cold for some reason that it was "broken"... No reason I know of for that.

buzzmc wrote:but that was sold cold for some reason that it was "broken"... No reason I know of for that.

My guess is thermosyphon stall. Did you happen to have the 2nd boiler on, then turn it off, then pull the shot after x amount of time? Sometimes when I turn off the steam boiler and watch my TC grouphead adapter, I'll note the thermosyphon stalls at about 140* after a period of time.

buzzmc wrote:I'm curious what this means

a l'Americano : coarse grind, massive over dose, lot's of futzing, gorilla tamp, hot +200°F shots.

a l'Italiano : find grind, lower dose, light tamp, cooler ~195°F shots.