Although puck defects are of minimal utility in diagnosing extraction problems, from what you describe, I'd say you are just a bit light on the amount of coffee and possibly need to grind finer.

See Tamping Twaddle for an exposé on the importance of tamper diameter.
A tamper tighter than 0.5mm is a PITA.

cafeIKE wrote:Although puck defects are of minimal utility in diagnosing extraction problems, from what you describe, I'd say you are just a bit light on the amount of coffee and possibly need to grind finer.

See Tamping Twaddle for an exposé on the importance of tamper diameter.
A tamper tighter than 0.5mm is a PITA.

Interesting read for sure. When I had a naked PF w/my Andreja Premium I don't think I ever had extractions that were that good. I almost always had 'spritzies' somewhere, and never did figure out why or how to fix that. I no longer have a naked PF, but maybe I should change that too soon.

I'll get a scale tho. That's the easiest thing to report back on and confirm/eliminate as an "issue".

another_jim wrote:BTW, on an E61, the pre-infusion takes around 10 seconds; so not seeing even one drop for the first ten seconds after turning on the pump is not a choke, it's normal operation.

Just to be technically correct and possibly not confuse or mislead anyone, make that E61 with vibe pump. E61 with rotary pump pre-infusion more like 3 seconds.

buzzmc wrote:Interesting read for sure. When I had a naked PF w/my Andreja Premium I don't think I ever had extractions that were that good. I almost always had 'spritzies' somewhere, and never did figure out why or how to fix that. I no longer have a naked PF, but maybe I should change that too soon.

Really good idea to get a nekkid PF to diag shot issues. Without one you're basically pulling blind as far as diagnosing PF build distribution issues. Work at it until spritzes are rare not the norm. Even in a fast paced environment using a modest Mazzer Major shot spritzes are rare at my cafe, all shots pulled nekkid by multiple baristas including myself.

Lovely and descriptive as it is... What causes them? I definitely had them with the old machine... Maybe this weekend I'll cut down one of the PF's for nekkidness, and I bet I still get them often. The only thing that changed was the machine.. Same barista, grinder, tamper, and technique

If you had channeling issues with your old setup, which is what those little jets are from, and you are having issues with your new machine but still using the original grinder and barista, then the issue is liable to be with the grinder or barista since they are the only two variables that have remained the same.

I would still start with the dose, make sure you are getting a reasonable amount of coffee in the basket. Do you have a video camera? You could record the process from the grind/dose/tamp to extraction so we could see what is happening and what you are doing. It may be something that jumps out, it may continue to be a mystery. You may want to consider getting a new set of burrs for the grinder since it came to you used. Even with worn burrs most espresso grinders will still produce a close shot unless they have been horribly abused. But as I said, I would start with a scale to verify your dose. You should be able to do 16 grams in a stock VBM double basket (Faema style basket) without a problem.

You could also try the dime test that I detailed for single shots in the Domobar Super bench review. That was for a single but it still applies to a double basket.

The staler the coffee, the more it spritzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

18 grams for the first one after I got the scale.

Coffee's never old. Roast date on today's, oct 2, and was opened today.

Starting to wonder if my nifty grinder, purchased used off craigslist, was worthwhile.

So I do the same thing every time, and it would appear I get the same results every time. 18g, 4 shots in a row.

I really dislike the idea of dosing into some container, just to transfer that to the PF... Unless there's a really compelling reason to do that I'm not likely to change my ways of dispensing directly into the PF... Though, it would be easier to control the dose.

Fact is, dispensing a healing pile of ground coffee into the pf, and then leveling it off, always seems to result in 18g, and seems to never touch the screen when locked in before a shot. No tapping or other 'up-dosing' techniques are used.

As far as technique... no video camera, so that's going to be rough. But I grind more coffee than I need, I usually let to flicks of the lever drop onto a plate, and then start dispensing what I assume to be fresh ground coffee into the PF. Heaping pile is leveled with my finger, leaving a gentle concave top to the coffee in the PF.

I've tried all sorts of tamping methods... But reading a previously linked thread about tamping has got me to not worry about it all that much... Can't believe a 53mm tamp in a 58mm basket produced any sort of useful shot, let alone a shot that appeared to be better than the one that was tamped with an appropriate size tamper.

So I try and center the tamper, and one tamp, and that's it.

So far, while seemingly "new", the results appear better, but still not great. I also upped the temp last night to 221 to see how much of a difference that makes.

One thing of note is the fact that 'preinfusion' times seem to vary greatly on different machines, and thismachine with a vibe pump takes a while longer than what I'd thought before I started this topic. so I don;t even bother with thinking about the time of the shot until I see the pressure gauge start to ramp up.

Not really looking forward to a new grinder purchase... But if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. I'm certainly not shipping this thing somewhere to get new burrs installed. Fact is it's a convenient opportunity to get something more counter frinedly like a cimballi... Especially since I never grind coffee for anything other than espresso.. Thinking strongly towards that Max Hybrid, if I decide that somehow this is indeed a grinder issue.

Looks like I just got a bit more lucky more than anything else with my previously better results. Things are pretty typical over time it would seem.

I still end up with pulls that are thin and light much more often than not

Did anyone's VBM come with insulation on the boiler? I saw a pic on Stefano's site of the rotary (I'm getting ready to convert to rotary) and both boilers were insulated.

All measurements seem pretty stable w/the scale. 18g.

All results are still very scetchy at best, but basically every now and then I get a good pull. Most often I get thin/no body, and light colored extractions.

Any other ways to determine if it's really the grinder at fault, vs some sort of botched technique?

Buzz, I'm with you so far: too blonde, too quick and not much creame. I think I might be grinding to fine as the manometer doesnt' get higher than 4-5 bars during a pull. 16gms of coffee, after tap, the level is about 1/4" below the top of the pf. My, vibe pump model, preinfusion time is about 5-8secs.

Which grinder?

4-5 bar means the grind is too coarse and / or not enough coffee

Cimbali Max Hybrid..setting is 5 now. Upped from 4 from my first shot today. Funny though, the bar stayed at about 4 after the first shot, and never got any higher with the larger grind size.

5 as 1 2 3 4 5?!?!

I rarely grind past 1.25, most often 0.5 to 0.75

When i had mine i was around '1' as well...

Yes, 5 lol Wow, you guys are down to the 1 level?? No wonder I'm getting shots that are done in 10secs hehe I obviously have no experience in choosing a grind, so Thanks guys for the hint. I'll give it a try later today and get back.

I own one of the first machines shipped from the original batch of V.1.0 Vibiemme Double Boiler machines fitted with the smaller steam boiler. Although Jim at 1st-Line quickly supplied a new and larger steam boiler I have yet to do the the upgrades - waiting till the production models stabilize then will do them all at once. However, in the meantime I am getting very nice microfoam having fitted a 2 hole steam tip with smaller holes and set the boiler pressure to 1.8. The pressure will drop initially when the valve is fully opened and then stabilize at around 0.8 and stretch and heat 6 oz. of ice cold milk in about 20 seconds - enough for 2 singles or a double cappa. Recovery time is around 30 sec - so this works well for me and I may not change the boiler - simply insulate and swap out the circuit board for a newly programmed version when Vibiemme makes them available. btw - the " standard Isomac 2 hole steam tip" I use came from Chris' and they are no longer available - they have been replaced by the "new Isomac 2 hole steam tip" with even smaller holes - works OK but is a bit slow for my taste - Vibiemme needs to make a tip available with smaller holes imho. Hope this helps a few early adopters out there.

downunder wrote:swap out the circuit board for a newly programmed version when Vibiemme makes them available.

What's different about the coding in the new circuit board?

downunder wrote:I am getting very nice microfoam having fitted a 2 hole steam tip ...

The tip that came on mine is a 2 hole - the holes are just big. With the new boiler, the tip size isn't an issue for me.

-Mark