Hey everyone!

Noobie here getting into espresso. I've been to nearly every coffee shop in my town and taken a liking to espresso based drinks. Particularly lattes.. I know I know, maddening! Right? Personally, I love the way the milk and coffee go together for a very enjoyable product.

Fast forward, I've done a ton of research and have my own equipment now. A refurb gaggia classic from WLL (Side note.. bad experience. Came with unplugged internals and no support response!) with OPV mod set directly to 10 bar. I've even got the rancilio wand on it. Have a shiny new LeLit PL53, which I LOVE, as well as I picked up a Mazzer Mini locally for a good price and have replaced the burrs.

Short story - I can pull an acceptable shot of espresso without the distinct sour/bitter notes. Im not a pro, but have probably pulled enough shots consecutively to kill a cow while testing. However, any time I add frothed milk I just end up with this bland drink that taste can only be described as dirt or earth water. It does not retain the wonderful espresso flavors that the milk based drinks from local shops do.

I hope someone knows that taste and feels my pain. It doesnt matter if I heat the milk less, more, etc - end up with the same earthy product. Could my frothing be to blame?

Additional details. I am using local and freshly roasted beans from a known roaster that makes good stuff. FWIW, have tried other beans with same result.
Im dosing into my PF and placing it on an AWS scale to 18g consistently. Then I pull my shot, weighing it over the scale while pulled until ~30g weight, working to align this to about 25-30 second time.

I can get a decent shot. Unfortunately, Im not a huge direct espresso fan yet and more enjoy it so far as a building block. So I pour my cold milk and froth it as quickly as possible, and pour. Then you guessed it.. I have this light brown ick liquid.

My desired goal is to have a drink in which has the harmony between the coffee and milk. Where you sip into the fresh microfoam and get the sweetness of the milk along with the beautiful coffee notes. But no dice.

I want to get a VST basket, better tamper, etc, but I believe this is just part of my new found obsession and not the issue.

Appreciate all input and apologize for the extended read.

Possibilities that come to mind are that you may be used to crappy, hard-edged espresso barging through the milk flavors at your cafes, thus you home efforts with nicely balanced espresso taste drowned by the milk.
It's also possible for a contaminated boiler/wand to add an off flavor to the milk, even while the fresh water flushing through the boiler makes the coffee taste ok. To investigate this, blow steam into a cool mug, and after it cools for a moment, sniff the vapor and taste the condensate water. If it doesn't smell/taste clean and fresh, there's a problem in the machine.

Just a couple things:
1. Do you have a thermometer for the milk? 140-160F seems good for me.
2. Have you tried less milk and and/or more espresso?

Thanks for the feedbacj,

Earlgrey: I am hoping not! Have been to a decent number of shops to get an idea of what a well prepared latte is like. The specific shop I love, along with their beans, is Topeca. I am working with some of their freshly roasted Cleavon blend.
Steam also seems OK. I should have mentioned I get this result with another machine as well. So thinking it has to be me.

Flathead1: Not using a thermometer currently, just gone by 'getting too hot to touch' advice. As mentioned through Ive attempted to make up for this by steaming less to ensure no scalding.

Thinking about it further, its seeming more obvious it must just be me. Since I cant get the right microfoam yet, I just end up pouring hot milk into the shot making a thin icky drink. Went back to Topeca and the guy there using the same blend was able to produce a heck of an awesome latte. More attention showed his ability to froth properly kept the proper espresso/milk separation resulting in a great cup.

So looks like I need to practice more. With that said, making milk drinks seems to be difficult with the machine. If I froth first, then pull the shot, it seems the water is too hot and i end up with a fast poured nasty shot. If I do it the other way around with shot first, it sits out for a minute. Back to the drawing board!

Do you have a pid on your classic? I couldn't froth with it at all until I put an alarm on the pid to get constant steam pressure.

However I would get a thermometer to verify your results without one

Drink your milk after you steamed it. See what it tastes like and what is the mouth-feel. If it resembles the taste you get from the latte, then it's the frothing.

But do what was said before to taste the water. I would put water in the steaming pitcher (same amount as you do milk) and bring it to the temperature like you do with the milk. Then taste it.

But the First thing I wanted to say after reading your first post is that you probably making a watery steamed milk and that creates that bad latte. - but you already suspected that in your second post. That's my first suspicion. The milk test and water test above is just to eliminate that suspect.

No PID or thermometer currently. The milk / froth seems OK but Im not very consistent. I tried running water through and it tastes fine.

My challenge is that when I first open the steam valve it begins to just blow the milk everywhere, making it difficult to position it properly while its splashing around.

I wish I would have gotten a CC1 at this point, but I just have to keep trying I guess.

surreal wrote:My challenge is that when I first open the steam valve it begins to just blow the milk everywhere, making it difficult to position it properly while its splashing around.

That is just telling me that the wand is not submerged when you turn the wand on.
( blowing milk everywhere )

why don't you at least look at, or again the beginner videos on how to...
/espresso-g ... -milk.html

/newbie-int ... resso.html

I to am not an espresso drinker, I like cappuccinos and my wife likes Lattes. The problem is, they start off as espresso, so if you haven't gotten to where you can make a good espresso, it's hard to expect to have a good latte, even if that large amount of milk does hide a lot of the bad.

I literally can't stand straight espresso, so when when I'm sampling mine, I put about a half teaspoon of sugar in it. That's just enough to make it drinkable and I can still tell if it's bitter, sour etc. or actually taste good.

As for the milk, Krogers in these parts used to put it's going out of date milk on clearance for $1 per gallon on Fridays. I used to buy me about five gallons at the time and spend the weekend practicing.

As mentioned, sounds like the wand is not deep enough to start. Start with the holes well below the surface and quickly drop your pitcher until you hear it start hissing and see a small vortex form next to the tip. I hold my pitcher at a angle and the wand is close to the side so it helps churn the milk. Holding your hand on the side of the pitcher, as soon as it gets warm, raise the pitcher to bury the wand and heat the milk. When it gets hot enough you have to move your hand, stop. Swirl it around and tap it down on the counter a couple of times to get rid of the large bubbles.

Also, make sure you are not trying to use a pitcher too large. I've never had my hands on a one, but I doubt that machine is going to make the steam for more than six to eight ounces of milk.

One othe note, you said you put new burrs in your grinder. How much coffee have you ground since? It's probably going to take several pounds before the start giving a consistent grind.

surreal wrote:My challenge is that when I first open the steam valve it begins to just blow the milk everywhere, making it difficult to position it properly while its splashing around.

I wish I would have gotten a CC1 at this point, but I just have to keep trying I guess.

A CC1 wouldn't make any difference in that regard. Submerge the tip more when starting. You can adjust the placement of the tip as needed once you get going.

surreal wrote:As mentioned through Ive attempted to make up for this by steaming less to ensure no scalding.

It will get too hot to touch well before scalding.

surreal wrote:With that said, making milk drinks seems to be difficult with the machine. If I froth first, then pull the shot, it seems the water is too hot and i end up with a fast poured nasty shot. If I do it the other way around with shot first, it sits out for a minute.

Pull first then froth. Make sure your cup is heated and pour your milk before you start anything.

surreal wrote:Thinking about it further, its seeming more obvious it must just be me. Since I cant get the right microfoam yet, I just end up pouring hot milk into the shot making a thin icky drink. Went back to Topeca and the guy there using the same blend was able to produce a heck of an awesome latte.

It's probably a combination of things. Skill being one. If you're not getting the milk textured properly that will affect taste. Grinder can also play a part. They may be using commercial conicals.