Attempt at humor with subject heading....

So I loved the previous post regarding how to approach espresso extraction. There's another one on some other blog (think it's God Shot) where he eloquently expresses how he became seduced by the little Marzocco machine and lost sight of extracting the soul of the bean. Posts like these are important - especially in our consumption (as in a consumer purchase) will make me happy society - for such threads help me focus upon why I'm doing this whole dance.

Still, there are times I wonder if I've hit the wall with my current process, and I'd be better served by upgrading some aspect of it. I've been doing this espresso thing for about 10 years, with the last four being serious. I've decided to stake my process around the Black Cat espresso blend, which passes through a Mini Mazzer, a PID'd Silvia, a warmed cup, eventually hitting my tongue after a meditative sniff or two. I've found the Black Cat to be sensitive to the usual factors, and have standardized a decent volume, grind size, tamp pressure, leaving extraction temp and time the remaining variables. It seems there's a modest keyhole of excellence for this blend, with a slightly larger window of acceptability. At best, the blend has a heavy dark chocolate taste - like an over 70% coco bar of quality sh** - and some other more mild tones, which I don't want to take the effort to name, because they're, well, mild.

So I'm wondering if I've maxed this blend, or if a change in equipment would allow a deeper understanding of the blend. If the former, then it's time to explore new horizons (suggestions?), but if it's the latter, well, where would I look to improve my processing equipment? Specifically, do I go nuts and order that $1,300 thing designed by the anal retentive photographer/audiophile/coffee-nut? (funny, same "hobbies" I get anal retentive over....) Or do I say the Mini's good stuff and look to a HX or DB in that range?

To the more knowledgeable in the forum, I can appreciate how the "What do I buy next?" threads could drive you nuts, but I really would love your input, even if it's to say: it's what's behind the handle, dude.

Thanks,

Lee

While there is a point at which ones equipment becomes the limiting factor, not many of us will ever truly hit that point using a modern 'high end' machine. Many people start with a Silvia and upgrade in a year or two, others are perfectly happy with them for many years. Most that end up retaining the Silvia are shot only folks as the shot to steam transition is a bit lacking (but I have never owned a Silvia). What you get with a bigger machine is better thermal stability, better steaming and seemingly more forgiving extractions. The down side of a larger forgiveness factor is you start too lax and get sloppy in your technique.

I think the GS3 is a prime example of the upgrade fever syndrome. I would love to have one, but I have to ask myself 'will I get a $5K better tasting shot with the upgrade?' Some find the machine to be the best thing since the introduction of the E61 and others that think it is good, but not as good as the hype. Not having used one, I have no opinion other than I would still like to have one.

As far as $1300, that is defiantly not in the 'going nuts' category. Your typical prosumer machine will hit you in the 1300-1600 range. Popular belief is that the jump in shot quality between a Silvia to E61 is more dramatic than the change between E61 to bigger E61, or other machine. Now a La Cimbali Jr, Elektra A3 or La Marzocco GS3 would be in that 'going nuts' 2500-4500 range, baring the off the scale multi group commercial machine in the kitchen.

Now having said that, I have one of those off the scale multi group machines in my kitchen. I would trade it for any of the above three single group machines.

Thanks, CF.

That's part of my upgrade anxiety: will I regret not shelling out for the GS3 in a few years? Your comment suggests no, if, that is, I stay focused upon the coffee.

Per the $1,300 going nuts comment, however, I was referring to the Versalab grinder; in other words, would I notice a larger impact upon my extraction process by going to an extraordinary grinder, or making the move to HX?

Lee

Your Mazzer Mini is more than adequate. Based on comments from someone I know that has had one for a couple of years, I would not trade my Mazzer or Cimbali for the Versalab grinder.

As to the GS3, would it make a better shot than the Silvia, yes, will it make a $3500 better shot, that is disputable. A nice reality check is Dan's One week with the LaMarzocco GS3.

lee wrote:
Per the $1,300 going nuts comment, however, I was referring to the Versalab grinder; in other words, would I notice a larger impact upon my extraction process by going to an extraordinary grinder, or making the move to HX?

Lee

The Versalab is a small step up in espresso taste; but the first model was poorly designed and has severe durability issues (they say they've fixed the bugs in the current version). Oddly enough, if you are going to make brewed coffee, a conical grinder is a much bigger step up. On the Mini, annual burr changes make a big difference (i.e. about 4 times as often as recommended). Some of the Scandinavian WBC baristas have been claiming that a Turkish Zassenhaus combined with a drill will do just as well as commercial conicals; otherwise the small Macap ($850) or Mazzer Kony (street around $1000) is a better bet.

I'm no expert on the Silvia; I just got a pair in order to set up an espresso tasting lab. From what I can see so far, the machines have a huge tendency to center channel and underextract the basket edges, at least when using my usual dosing and tamping techniques which are designed to prevent side channeling (the much more common problem on E61s and the Elektra). The result so far has been distinctly inferior tasting shots, both for flavor and for mouthfeel.

I'm pretty sure one can compensate for this by modifying ones ritual or blocking some holes in the middle of the shower screen; but there's no doubt that going to an E61 or other machine with a well enineered group is a good sized step up in terms of everyday, gyration free consistency.

I ended up getting an e61 HX machine. Will look forward to more stable shots, along with a little training from Ms. Perry.

Thanks for the input.

Lee

Lee,

Please let us know which machine you decided on and what won you over from its competition.

As a present Silvia owner contemplating the same issue I would greatly appreciate a follow up from you. What were your first impressions? How long did it take for you to achieve a satisfactory pull on a new type of machine? Did you reach a level of taste that was beyond what the Silvia could provide?

I assume you used the Silvia before the PID was installed. Did you see a bump in shot quality that was greater or lesser than the change from single boiler to HX? Let me re-phrase that. On a scale of 1-10, rate the improvement of a PID Silvia over stock. Then rate the shot quality improvement from Silvia PID to e61 Hx.

You probably see where I'm headed. I'm facing the, "do I spend the $320+, including shipping, to have my 4 year old Silvia serviced and add a PID? OR. Sell her on eBay and spend the extra money for an HX." Personally, I make about 50/50 - double shots and Americano's , 2-3 times a day(local roaster - Supreme Bean) and maybe 2 lattes a month.

After years of temperature surfing, the HX cooling flush doesn't seem any more involved. The only downside I see is how much counter space these bad boys take up and how the missus isn't going to like that. The Mazzer grinder already elicited a groan.

Thanks in advance,
Ed

I'm just about a year into serious espresso and recently went from a non mod'd Silvia to a good e61 HX. I did have thermocouples on the top of the Silvia's boiler and on the grouphead to get better temp feedback for warming up and surfing. The good shots with the Silvia were pretty good but I had a problem with consistency.

After upgrading the shot consistency went way up. Almost all double shots are good to very good shots compared to the Silvia. One thing I have noticed, though, is that the best Silvia shots seemed to have more clarity and depth than the HX shots. The HX shots are consistently much better but blurred and muddier. Maybe it's me and the temp I'm pulling at or the pump pressure. Or are shots with an e61 HX generally blurred compared to other machines?

Ed,

I went with the Vibiemme Domobar Super Manual, Stainless Steel version. It struck me - based upon reviews & features - to be a respectable player in the sub $1,800 set of HX models. Check out Coffee Geek for a decent review of the machine.

It just came today and I have only pulled two shots. Initial impressions are:

- It's a monster (in size). Especially compared to the Silvia. If you go with this machine, make sure you have the counter space.
- It's beautiful.

I'll report back in a few days, after I've been able to acclimate to the machine.

Per my Silvia experience: yes, I did buy it stock. The thermostat failed after two years of daily use (temp surfed - though I wasn't exactly sure why, other than my shots tasted better). When I obtained the schematic, I couldn't believe how stupid the thermal system was; HUGE thermal pass band, which is insanely unacceptable given what I had learned about espresso. The PID mod just made so much sense, there was no other choice, and I was quite satisfied with the results for a long time. It will be interesting to see what type of improvement I'll be able to achieve with this new machine.

BTW, if Supreme Bean is local to you, then we're basically neighbors. When I get this thing up, you can come over and check it out for yourself.

Lee

Lee,

That looks like a beautiful machine, many happy years of use! Monster indeed, the 21" depth that would leave me just enough room to set a cup in front of it! Do you have it directly plumbed?

What machines were on your short list?

Are you having your Black Cat shipped in from Chicago? I've been meaning to purchase some once I decide which way to go with my machine. If you haven't given them a try lately, Supreme Bean has a new tasty Espresso roast called Dolce Terra Organic.

Ed

mrgnomer,

Interesting observation, I hope we get some feedback to the clarity, depth vs. blurred, muddy.

What is this from, is it the pull, is this better extraction? Does the crema last as long or longer than the Silvia crema did? Are you using the same beans?

Maybe this question should be posted in its own thread so it gets due attention?

Lastly, how would you describe the taste difference? Are you getting more flavor from the shot pulled on the Hx machine?

Thanks,
Ed

edwa wrote:mrgnomer,

Interesting observation, I hope we get some feedback to the clarity, depth vs. blurred, muddy.

What is this from, is it the pull, is this better extraction? Does the crema last as long or longer than the Silvia crema did? Are you using the same beans?

Maybe this question should be posted in its own thread so it gets due attention?

Lastly, how would you describe the taste difference? Are you getting more flavor from the shot pulled on the Hx machine?

Thanks,
Ed

I think it might be due to the e61 preinfusion. There's a thread going on preinfusion vs. no preinfusion and one observation was that preinfusion might 'muddy' the taste of the shot vs. no preinfusion. With my Vetrano the preinfusion is about 5 sec and it seems that it's true, preinfusion expanding the puck makes it resist extraction pressure better which helps for a longer, maybe more even extraction, but I find that taste in the cup lacks the depth I got from very good Silvia shots.

Now a very good Silvia shot came about 1 in 6-10 for me with about 40% blonding early or channeling in some way. With the Vetrano a bad shot only comes when the grind is off from switching to a new roast or going from a really humid day to a dry day. When the grind is on and everything else like dose, distributing and tamp line up pretty good the shots are consistently better than the average Silvia shot. Still, when the Silvia shot was dead on I could taste a good separation between the sweet, creamy, nutty notes of the roast. I thought the Vetrano would get me those kind of shots consistently but for the most part those tasty notes are blurred.

I'm sure my Silvia's pump pressure was higher than 9 bar so that's why I think it might be the pump pressure affecting the taste in the cup. I haven't raised the Vetrano's pump pressure to see what affect it would have but maybe I should.

The Vetrano pulls are all crema from start to finish and settle out over about 30sec to a minute after pulling. I home roast so the beans are fresh. The shots are very tasty and I am more pleased with their consistent quality vs. the Silvia. Still, I'd like to pull shots where the notes are more distinct.

Lee,

I don't know if you're still monitoring this thread, But, I read on another thread that you had also inquired about Heather Perry. I spoke with her today about trying to get together for some private instruction. If you're interested in this and ARE in my area (West LA) maybe we can arrange a split session.

mrgnomer, where did you find that preinfusion thread? I looked all over for it. I did however read about a lot of other things to the point of extreme eye fatigue.

Has anyone ever run a thread/topic with the goal of cataloging the upgrade path or choice of former Silvia owners? I have to admit I'm starting to flirt with the Brewtus II for day in and day out use, but the pyramid hinting lines of the La Valentina Levetta are much more appealing.

edwa wrote:mrgnomer, where did you find that preinfusion thread? I looked all over for it.

See The Impact of Preinfusion on the Taste of Espresso Shots. This thread and a few other related ones are linked in Espresso Gear's FAQs and Favorites.

Speaking of extractions.

Last night my bottomless PF arrived with a 3 cup basket. I waited until morning before amping up the central nervous system.

1st shot had a nasty side spray/jet. Second attempt didn't look too bad. BUT here's the question, in 27 seconds I came close to the top of my 3.5 oz ceramic espresso cup. Then I thought, wait I've used a 3 cup basket shouldn't I have used a larger cup for a larger volume shot? More like 4.5oz?

This was one of the thickest crema shots I have ever pulled. It felt thick and creamy, maybe a little oily. I tasted chocolate, nut, and a bunch of other tastes I couldn't put names to at that time of the morning. Sounds good, no? Half hour later my central nervous system is bouncing off the wall and my stomach was tight. Leading back to...

Did I pull too concentrated of a shot? Can I use my 2 cup basket as well for diagnostic purposes?

I feel like I should light and video tape these pulls so I can see them better instead of on my knees, my neck crooked to the side, squinting for better focus trying to simultaneously decipher what I'm seeing.


Thanks,
Ed

edwa wrote:BUT here's the question, in 27 seconds I came close to the top of my 3.5 oz ceramic espresso cup. Then I thought, wait I've used a 3 cup basket shouldn't I have used a larger cup for a larger volume shot? More like 4.5oz?

No, the extraction time and volume remains approximately the same for doubles and triples. Jon's article How to make a beautiful "naked" triple espresso advocates even smaller volumes. I haven't tried it, but I would imagine pulling a "super-sized" double with a triple basket would taste a lot like a regular double, just more volume.

You're right, videos are great diagnostic aids. This is one from One week with the La Marzocco GS3. There are bunch more in Videos of espresso extractions (most are not "beauty" shots).

mrgnomer wrote:... One thing I have noticed, though, is that the best Silvia shots seemed to have more clarity and depth than the HX shots. The HX shots are consistently much better but blurred and muddier. Maybe it's me and the temp I'm pulling at or the pump pressure. Or are shots with an e61 HX generally blurred compared to other machines?

If you're just getting used to the e61 - you might want to read Dan's ubiquitous HX Love article to check out details in the cooling flush and the pause. I think these are the two key factors after you have the grind/tamp down. I use Eric's adapter to get my temps down and before that I was holding a TC under the gh doing the cooling flush. I'm sure it's retentive, but then I also pull very consistent shots (except for the dang muggy days). Like Jim said in the last part of Dan's article, (paraphrasing here) play around with the temp of your cooling flush and the pause before pulling your shot, and you'll be able to play around with your flavors in the cup.

Have fun!
Geoff

Great Video Dan! Has anybody out there shot a video of their cool down flush, wait time, and then pulled shot on an Hx? If so would you post it?

Below is an example of one I did as part of my reseach for Monitoring Brew Temperature - E61 & Silvia:



I don't think the timings will be helpful for you since they vary from machine-to-machine and its boiler pressure. The pressurestat was at the top of its recommended setting during the video above, so the flush is long and rebound time shorter than usual. This clip from How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs is more typical:



And just to see how much they can vary, check out the flush from the Elektra A3:

Lee,

Any updates for us on your new machine?

I finally sent away for the Black Cat and opened it this morning. Wow, in a word, I've been quite happy with my Supreme Bean blends, and continue to be so - but I am grinning this morning.

Recently the L.A. Times had written about Black Cat and had listed a restaurant that served it. My wife and I went there for brunch and I had a double AND a Latte. I was unimpressed. I now believe I must have had stale coffee, because what Silvia pumped out today was delicious. In fact, even the grounds out of the Mazzer weren't as clumpy and easier to stir.