mrgnomer,

Interesting observation, I hope we get some feedback to the clarity, depth vs. blurred, muddy.

What is this from, is it the pull, is this better extraction? Does the crema last as long or longer than the Silvia crema did? Are you using the same beans?

Maybe this question should be posted in its own thread so it gets due attention?

Lastly, how would you describe the taste difference? Are you getting more flavor from the shot pulled on the Hx machine?

Thanks,
Ed

edwa wrote:mrgnomer,

Interesting observation, I hope we get some feedback to the clarity, depth vs. blurred, muddy.

What is this from, is it the pull, is this better extraction? Does the crema last as long or longer than the Silvia crema did? Are you using the same beans?

Maybe this question should be posted in its own thread so it gets due attention?

Lastly, how would you describe the taste difference? Are you getting more flavor from the shot pulled on the Hx machine?

Thanks,
Ed

I think it might be due to the e61 preinfusion. There's a thread going on preinfusion vs. no preinfusion and one observation was that preinfusion might 'muddy' the taste of the shot vs. no preinfusion. With my Vetrano the preinfusion is about 5 sec and it seems that it's true, preinfusion expanding the puck makes it resist extraction pressure better which helps for a longer, maybe more even extraction, but I find that taste in the cup lacks the depth I got from very good Silvia shots.

Now a very good Silvia shot came about 1 in 6-10 for me with about 40% blonding early or channeling in some way. With the Vetrano a bad shot only comes when the grind is off from switching to a new roast or going from a really humid day to a dry day. When the grind is on and everything else like dose, distributing and tamp line up pretty good the shots are consistently better than the average Silvia shot. Still, when the Silvia shot was dead on I could taste a good separation between the sweet, creamy, nutty notes of the roast. I thought the Vetrano would get me those kind of shots consistently but for the most part those tasty notes are blurred.

I'm sure my Silvia's pump pressure was higher than 9 bar so that's why I think it might be the pump pressure affecting the taste in the cup. I haven't raised the Vetrano's pump pressure to see what affect it would have but maybe I should.

The Vetrano pulls are all crema from start to finish and settle out over about 30sec to a minute after pulling. I home roast so the beans are fresh. The shots are very tasty and I am more pleased with their consistent quality vs. the Silvia. Still, I'd like to pull shots where the notes are more distinct.

Lee,

I don't know if you're still monitoring this thread, But, I read on another thread that you had also inquired about Heather Perry. I spoke with her today about trying to get together for some private instruction. If you're interested in this and ARE in my area (West LA) maybe we can arrange a split session.

mrgnomer, where did you find that preinfusion thread? I looked all over for it. I did however read about a lot of other things to the point of extreme eye fatigue.

Has anyone ever run a thread/topic with the goal of cataloging the upgrade path or choice of former Silvia owners? I have to admit I'm starting to flirt with the Brewtus II for day in and day out use, but the pyramid hinting lines of the La Valentina Levetta are much more appealing.

edwa wrote:mrgnomer, where did you find that preinfusion thread? I looked all over for it.

See The Impact of Preinfusion on the Taste of Espresso Shots. This thread and a few other related ones are linked in Espresso Gear's FAQs and Favorites.

Speaking of extractions.

Last night my bottomless PF arrived with a 3 cup basket. I waited until morning before amping up the central nervous system.

1st shot had a nasty side spray/jet. Second attempt didn't look too bad. BUT here's the question, in 27 seconds I came close to the top of my 3.5 oz ceramic espresso cup. Then I thought, wait I've used a 3 cup basket shouldn't I have used a larger cup for a larger volume shot? More like 4.5oz?

This was one of the thickest crema shots I have ever pulled. It felt thick and creamy, maybe a little oily. I tasted chocolate, nut, and a bunch of other tastes I couldn't put names to at that time of the morning. Sounds good, no? Half hour later my central nervous system is bouncing off the wall and my stomach was tight. Leading back to...

Did I pull too concentrated of a shot? Can I use my 2 cup basket as well for diagnostic purposes?

I feel like I should light and video tape these pulls so I can see them better instead of on my knees, my neck crooked to the side, squinting for better focus trying to simultaneously decipher what I'm seeing.


Thanks,
Ed

edwa wrote:BUT here's the question, in 27 seconds I came close to the top of my 3.5 oz ceramic espresso cup. Then I thought, wait I've used a 3 cup basket shouldn't I have used a larger cup for a larger volume shot? More like 4.5oz?

No, the extraction time and volume remains approximately the same for doubles and triples. Jon's article How to make a beautiful "naked" triple espresso advocates even smaller volumes. I haven't tried it, but I would imagine pulling a "super-sized" double with a triple basket would taste a lot like a regular double, just more volume.

You're right, videos are great diagnostic aids. This is one from One week with the La Marzocco GS3. There are bunch more in Videos of espresso extractions (most are not "beauty" shots).

mrgnomer wrote:... One thing I have noticed, though, is that the best Silvia shots seemed to have more clarity and depth than the HX shots. The HX shots are consistently much better but blurred and muddier. Maybe it's me and the temp I'm pulling at or the pump pressure. Or are shots with an e61 HX generally blurred compared to other machines?

If you're just getting used to the e61 - you might want to read Dan's ubiquitous HX Love article to check out details in the cooling flush and the pause. I think these are the two key factors after you have the grind/tamp down. I use Eric's adapter to get my temps down and before that I was holding a TC under the gh doing the cooling flush. I'm sure it's retentive, but then I also pull very consistent shots (except for the dang muggy days). Like Jim said in the last part of Dan's article, (paraphrasing here) play around with the temp of your cooling flush and the pause before pulling your shot, and you'll be able to play around with your flavors in the cup.

Have fun!
Geoff

Great Video Dan! Has anybody out there shot a video of their cool down flush, wait time, and then pulled shot on an Hx? If so would you post it?

Below is an example of one I did as part of my reseach for Monitoring Brew Temperature - E61 & Silvia:



I don't think the timings will be helpful for you since they vary from machine-to-machine and its boiler pressure. The pressurestat was at the top of its recommended setting during the video above, so the flush is long and rebound time shorter than usual. This clip from How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs is more typical:



And just to see how much they can vary, check out the flush from the Elektra A3:

Lee,

Any updates for us on your new machine?

I finally sent away for the Black Cat and opened it this morning. Wow, in a word, I've been quite happy with my Supreme Bean blends, and continue to be so - but I am grinning this morning.

Recently the L.A. Times had written about Black Cat and had listed a restaurant that served it. My wife and I went there for brunch and I had a double AND a Latte. I was unimpressed. I now believe I must have had stale coffee, because what Silvia pumped out today was delicious. In fact, even the grounds out of the Mazzer weren't as clumpy and easier to stir.