cafeIKE wrote:Isn't "consistently exceptional" oxymoronic?

May be, it is right up there with tactical nuclear weapon and precision cluster bomb. But the point, which was not so well made on my part, is that anyone can make decent, or good espresso with a decent kit and a little practice. However, to reach the next level and what separates the casual drinker and the home enthusiast (crazed fanatic whom I may fall under) takes decidedly more effort in both technique and kit although blindly throwing money at equipment will never fix a fundamental error on the baristas side.

While a Silvia may make good espresso, even in the hands of pro it has a very limited ceiling. So even if the new user is consistent in his/her preparation, the equipment is a limiting factor. At the same time, the best machine on the planet will pull swill if the end user does not prepare the shot properly or uses subpar beans/grinder. I think it is a mix of factors, pairing the user, machine, grinder and bean to achieve the desired end product. That is something I noted in the titan grinder project.

I believe that a particular grinder is best paired to a particular machine and bean. Each item needs to be complementing to the other in order to find the proper mix of attributes for the desired cup. A grinder that produces a bright flavor, combined with a high acidic blend and machine that produces a bright shot is not a good combination, unless you like super bright and acidic shots. The same is true at the other end of the spectrum. I had the unique opportunity to use 7 different grinders with 6 different machines and a slew of different blends. What produced a good shot in one combination was mediocre in another. Unfortunately, the only way to find that combination is by trying them, which can be quite expensive.

There is also a point of diminished returns in equipment. Once you go beyond a point, you are spending a lot of money for small changes. If that added change is what you are after, then you have to pony up the cash or live without it, but we are drifting way off topic at this point.

cannonfodder wrote:anyone can make decent, or good espresso with a decent kit and a little practice.

Then I'm going to start handing out your email address when I get served WTFIT!

cannonfodder wrote:However, to reach the next level and what separates the casual drinker and the home enthusiast (crazed fanatic whom I may fall under)

And I'm thinking that someone that is looking for their first machine has to either decide that they are on the path, or just want something better than Starbucks. The former will want the best, the latter will have to decide how much effort, ergo, how much of an investment, he wants to put into his kit. Telling him that he needs to drop a few grand to get decent 'spro is misleading. Remember, this is basic training. A basic trainee will get to decent 'spro with enough training on a Silvia, but spending ten times that amount won't get him there too much faster, It will, however, allow him to pull said 'spro with less effort, and less attention to detail. This isn't for the connoisseur, or the driven (or the driven mad) but for someone with that, "What's it gonna take, and how do I decide where to put how much money?" look in his eye.

cannonfodder wrote:While a Silvia may make good espresso, even in the hands of pro it has a very limited ceiling. So even if the new user is consistent in his/her preparation, the equipment is a limiting factor. At the same time,

I think that someone that hasn't decided that kicking Jim Hoffman's tuckus next year is his goal, he'll do fine with a Silvia level machine, or something a bit less 'manual' for quite a while after graduating from a steamtoy.

cannonfodder wrote:There is also a point of diminished returns in equipment. Once you go beyond a point, you are spending a lot of money for small changes. If that added change is what you are after, then you have to pony up the cash or live without it, but we are drifting way off topic at this point.

No, you're drifting right back on topic, at this point. We were discussing that there won't be a lot of difference in the cup with any of the machines between and including a Silvia and a Home LM, except for price and the correlating ease of producing that cup. Later, with study, experience, and the honing of skills, the cup will show a difference, but in most cases I'd think it prudent to steer a noob toward what they want to do, rather than what they want to end up with. Even if they *did* decide that the WBC is their goal, I'd start them off with something less than $2K to cut their teeth on, and suggest that they upgrade when they've reached the limits of the machine. Very few get to a point that their machinery limits their product within the first coupla years of noobiness. Serious concentrated freakish crazed fanatics notwithstanding (didn't I qualify that already once?), if a cat can't pull decent 'spro out of Miss Silvia, buying him better kit ain't gonna make it any better.

I need to go back and re-read this thread, I may have misunderstood where the conversation was going. As to the Silvia, in the interest of full disclosure, I have never used one. My information comes from those that do have them. If a person was looking at getting their first machine, I don't think I would recommend the Silvia based on its finicky reputation alone. The temperature surfing needed on a stock machine is enough to confuse me. By the time you purchased the Silvia and added a PID to eliminate the voodoo temperature surfing issue you could have gotten into an entry level heat exchanger machine and had a more robust piece of equipment. But that is personal preference on my part.

I do fully agree that one does not need to spend $3k on equipment to get good espresso, but I also believe that the machines targeted at the 'entry level' person are for the most part, too finicky for a first time user. There is enough information and technique to learn, tossing in a machine/grinder that takes extreme measures to manage is just setting them up for disappointment/failure. With the rise in equipment cost lately, a first time buyer may be in for a bit of sticker shock regardless of the machine of choice. I know I would never have gotten my current kit if the prices a year ago were where they are now.

I have expressed my opinion in other threads about entry and pro level equipment. I believe the defining feature between the two classes is not necessarily the cup, while there is a difference you do reach that point of diminished returns after $1700'ish. Beyond that, you are primarily paying for ease of use and repeatability. You even speak of it in your original post although I think there a bit more separation in our individual minimum machine requirements.

Once it reaches nine Bar and 88 to 96 degrees C, it's adequate. Anything more just makes it more reliable, more repeatable, or easier.

I just find it ironic that some of the entry level machines are the most difficult to use while the more expensive machines targeted at the prosumer takes very little fussing with to pull a consistent quality shot. You would think the scenario would be reversed.

cannonfodder wrote:I just find it ironic that some of the entry level machines are the most difficult to use while the more expensive machines targeted at the prosumer takes very little fussing with to pull a consistent quality shot. You would think the scenario would be reversed.

The very fact that they are inexpensive makes them entry level. Making them easier to operate costs money (the heat exchanger, the PID, the flowmeters, another boiler, even metering the pressure) and puts those machines out of reach of someone who doesn't appreciate just how much work you have to do on a bare-bones espresso machine. OTOH, if you can figure out how to operate these finicky machines, you have a deeper appreciation for what is going on vis-a-vis water and pressure at the puck. Basic Training is often far more grueling than most of the gigs that you end up getting in the military, but it's that way for a reason. Survive basic and jump school, and actual combat is a bit of a rest. ; >
You and I agree, in principal, we just quibble about hardware a bit. Chalk it up to my habit to wax a bit hyperbolic, and enthusiastically exaggerate.