E61 Thermometer Adapter Techniques for Dummies

by **sweaner** on Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:51 pm

I installed the adapter this past weekend and continue to experiment with it. I am having trouble coming to grips with the different techniques involved. I have read most of the threads about this but my non engineer mind continues to struggle.

For those that use this device, can you post your method? Let's say you want to brew at 200 degrees. What is your step-by-step method?

by **Randy G.** on Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:19 pm

You cannot "brew" at 200 degrees, or any other temperature because there is a temperature curve that takes place. But you can begin your brewing at about the same temperature every time.. here's what I do:

- first thing in the morning the machine goes on about 30-40 minutes before use.
- pour milk in pitcher, dose beans into grinder, and get ready generally.
- draw water through brewhead until thermometer displays the chosen temperature. This is my pre-cool.
- grind, dose, tamp
- draw water again to once again cool to predetermined temperature.
- lock and pull.
- subsequent shots done in succession need no further cooling.

* the temperature I use is 203 to 203.5

by **sweaner** on Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:34 pm

Thanks Randy. Let me see if I have this right.

1. Flush until temp is 203.
2. Prepare basket.
3. Flush again until 203.
4. Pull shot.

What will the true extraction temp be? Will it be about 4 degrees below the thermometer reading?

by **GC7** on Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:50 pm

Randy - You don't wait at all after you reach 203* each time?

I have found the best tasting espresso for my tastes so far are to flush a bit to warm the cup. Remove the portafilter and dose and tamp. I then flush to 203* put the portafilter back while counting to 25 and then pull the shot.

Repeat shots just got to 203* again and wait the 25 sec before pulling the shot.

I'm still new to this but after some experimentation with flush and recover and direct extractions without waiting that this way with my Anita works well.

by **edwa** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:45 am

Scott, you don't mention how quickly your temp rebounds. For what its worth here's the procedure for my quick rebounding Volante. I flush until my readout is around 201 F, then I pull the PF wipe it dry, grind, build my PF. I then do a flush/flash to a quick 5 count AFTER the ending of the "water dance" (usually no more than 4 oz). I then watch the readout and lock in the PF pausing so that I pull my shot around 205.1 F. The readout then continues to drop and often settles out around 200 to 201 for the last seconds of the shot. This is the best I've been able to achieve. For the second shot (my wife gets the first) I wiggle rinse the Grouphead and then with the water saved from the last flush I rinse out the PF, wipe it dry, grind and build the PF again and then directly flush/flash to a quick 5 count after the "water dance". Bob Y's rule of thumb works well for me, meaning that after we sit and sip more than 10 minutes has gone by and I start again with the initial longer flush, and then the second flush/flash.

Hope that helps, but it will depend on how quickly your machine rebounds.

http://users.rcn.com/erics/ · by **erics** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:53 am

Scott -

A nice collection of tips is contained here:

need-hints-on-using-e61-thermocouple-adapter-t5125.html

Additional tips are here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/

Most importantly, the referenced HB post demonstrates that "pulling a shot" in two ways that are 180 degrees apart can, in fact, produce very similar results. Naturally, I prefer "my method" as it is better suited for repeatibility AND for making very small changes to shot temperature either as a result of a "taste test" or simply for the purposes of adventure.

by **cafeIKE** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:38 pm

Randy's machine has a flow restrictor.
The same routine on another machine may yield vastly different results.

A technique depends on the shot interval. One-offs at a long interval may require a completely different approach pulling half a dozen for a dinner party.

by **sweaner** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:05 pm

erics wrote:Scott -

A nice collection of tips is contained here:

need-hints-on-using-e61-thermocouple-adapter-t5125.html

Additional tips are here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/

Most importantly, the referenced HB post demonstrates that "pulling a shot" in two ways that are 180 degrees apart can, in fact, produce very similar results. Naturally, I prefer "my method" as it is better suited for repeatibility AND for making very small changes to shot temperature either as a result of a "taste test" or simply for the purposes of adventure.

Eric, I have read those posts and most of the info on your site. however, the many methods as well as the graphs can make my head spin.

My Vetrano idles at about 215-216. It is being run off of a bottle, so the water is at room temp. Therefore, can anyone describe a few methods that I can use to extract at say 200. (I know that the temp changes during the shot) Also, what about the "back flush flush" technique?

by **Randy G.** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:52 pm

sweaner wrote:My Vetrano idles at about 215-216. It is being run off of a bottle, so the water is at room temp. Therefore, can anyone describe a few methods that I can use to extract at say 200. (I know that the temp changes during the shot) Also, what about the "back flush flush" technique?

As has been stated,too many variables comparing one machine to another to get exactly the same results. HX volume alone would necessitate different methodology. Add your palate, the blend and roast, the age of the coffee, accuracy of the thermometer and its depth in the brewhead, mass of the brewhead to that... well, you get the idea.

To further confuse you, I have never seen a temperature displayed over 210 or 211 on my machine, and that is during a flush after a prolonged idle period. During idle it usually is at about 200-202 or so.

Best advice is to flush to a given temperature for all your pulls for a few days, see how that tastes to you, then try a degree or two different temperature and see if that changes things. Don't worry about the "True" extraction temperature. Use the thermometer as the starting line, the brew-button to start the race, and your palate is the best way to judge who wins.

http://users.rcn.com/erics/ · by **erics** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:23 pm

The "general" design of most heat exchanger espresso machines is such that the most oftened used procedure is one of "flush & go" or "flush, wait a touch, & then go". For sure, there exists variations of these methods but basically what you are doing is trading some pretty hot water in the hx (average of ~223) for some colder water from the pump. The water in the hx is now a good bit below average grouphead temperature and, during the course of a shot, you are using the group to raise the temperature of that water using these methods. Note that this relatively small flush does zilch to the grouphead temperature because it takes quite a bit to alter the temperature of ~ 9 lbs of brass.

The idea of doing a "back flush flush" on Vetrano does not accomplish anything meaningful because the only spot that water is actually FLOWING is internal to the rotary pump via the pump's built-in bypass valve.

As you are drawing water from a bottle, I would think you want to minimize the volume of water used for flushing. In that case, you might want to consider lowering your pstat such that group temperature at idle is around 211-212. I would venture to say that the maximum reading on your boiler pressure gage is 1.25 to 1.30 bar. If so, try lowering the max to around 1.15 - this will reduce your flushing.

It is a little tricky to flush to exactly "X" degrees but I would suggest a flush to, say, 204-205 and then pull the shot. I have a thermometer installed in Anita now (all previous graphs were done with a thermocouple) and may run a "flush & go" tonight.

by **sweaner** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:58 pm

Thanks guys. I have been thinking about lowering the pstat setting. When I tried Randy's method of flushing to 203, building, flushing to 203, and pulling I got very good results. I noticed that the temp dropped as I pulled the shot down to 193-194. Does this mean anything?

http://users.rcn.com/erics/ · by **erics** on Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:41 pm

Well, if you do lower your pstat, give the machine about 30-45 minutes to settle down at the new temperature regime.

I just ran a Scace Thermofilter test on Anita and pulled a simulated shot after flushing to 206 on the digital thermometer. The temperatures were pretty flat around 199.0 to 199.5 as read from the thermocouple in the thermofilter.

About 2.5 minutes after the conclusion of the shot, I pulled another simulated shot when the digital thermometer hit 198.0 on the way up. This time the shot was 200.0 - 200.5 . If I had simulated a screen flush (which I forgot to do) it probably would have been 3 minutes. This time is dependent on your pstat setting - i.e. 1.25 will be faster than 1.20 which will be faster than 1.15.

by **edwa** on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:07 am

Hi Eric,

I'm often game to trying something new, so if I followed your directions on your users.rcn link correctly, I flush 7-9 oz.s and then reinsert the built basket and then lock and pull the shot when the grouphead temp is at 195 ?

On my machine, for this trial I let the shot go for 30 seconds and at that time I was finally dropping down to 209.3. After an 8 oz flush the grouphead would only DROP down to 197 unlike your graph where it went lower and then came up to 195. Did I do something wrong? It is set at about 1.15 to 1.2 bar. I should mention that since my machine came back from replacing the 2 relays the idle grouphead temp reads 200.5 and it use to read 214 BUT it still reads the same temps when pulling shots. I mean my routine remains unchanged and the results on the temp read out remain as before.

Ed

http://users.rcn.com/erics/ · by **erics** on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:20 am

Ed -

If I remember correctly, you are measuring GH temps with a Fuji PXR3 and a 1/16" Type T thermocouple - is this still correct? If yes, then:

. . . since my machine came back from replacing the 2 relays the idle grouphead temp reads 200.5 and it use to read 214 . . .

This is something that needs more investigation before we can go any further as it is too dramatic of a change without discovering the cause. First thing I would do (machine cold) is to measure the water level with a small wooden dowel (say 1/8") through the opening for the vacuum breaker valve. I believe you will find a substantially increased water level.

by **cannonfodder** on Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:36 pm

When using Eric's adapter, there is about 5 degrees difference (+) between the Scace grouphead temperature and the adapters temperature with the last few seconds of the shot being spot on. Use the thermocouple as a guide, not an absolute. Pay attention to your flush temperature, you time between the flush and the start of the shot and the temperature at the end of the shot. If your shot is bitter/hot when you use one combination, then try flushing to a slightly lower temperature, retaining the rebound time and pull another shot, again paying attention to the ending temperature. If it is still hot, and your end temperature was lower than before, flush to a slightly lower temperature and repeat. If your ending temperature is the same even with the lower flush temperature, then your machine has a fast rebound. If that is the case then you need to lower your recovery time and observe the results again and modify until you hit your sweet spot.

by **drminpa** on Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:15 pm

I went through the same struggle a year ago when I got my Vetrano and installed the thermometer adapter - now I don't give it second thought. Some points I've found to be key from the above posts:

- first thing in the morning the machine goes on about 30-40 minutes before use.
- pour milk in pitcher, dose beans into grinder, and get ready generally.
- draw water through brewhead until thermometer displays the chosen temperature. This is my pre-cool.
- grind, dose, tamp
- draw water again to once again cool to predetermined temperature.
- lock and pull.
- subsequent shots done in succession need no further cooling.

Its all about having a routine - I use exactly the same method but without the second flush.

Best advice is to flush to a given temperature for all your pulls for a few days, see how that tastes to you, then try a degree or two different temperature and see if that changes things. Don't worry about the "True" extraction temperature. Use the thermometer as the starting line, the brew-button to start the race, and your palate is the best way to judge who wins.

Exactly!! This is where your routine meets your espresso preference - you have to learn what temperature to start at by trial and taste. Each coffee bean and sometimes even batch is different and requires a different starting point (measured by your thermometer adapter). I use Black Cat and flush to 195 and then prepare the shot - in the 25-30 seconds it takes to do this (I know the timing because I timed and modified my preparation routine until I was consistent at 25-30 seconds) my machine rebounds to 198 which is my starting point. This makes an espresso just right for my taste.

Don't get too caught up in all the temperature curve stuff. You can get eactly the same results if you use a stop watch and time your flushes and rebounds instead of following the temperature. The thermometer adapter just makes it easier to hit the same points repeatably (its a PITA to follow a stop watch while going through your routine).

Best of luck.

Dave

PS - my Vetrano idles at about 210 - I have mine hard plumbed so incoming water is cooler and it still rebounds pretty quick. 215 seems awful high - I think you could get away with lowering your p-stat a little to cut down on flush water consumption.

by **sweaner** on Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:26 pm

David, thanks. One of these days I will lower the pstat, as I am using quite a bit of water.

by **Brownie** on Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:02 am

Hi all,

I have made a (positive

) review of Eric's adapter here...(It is in Danish).

A question I have is, if anyone can tell me how fast the readings are. Is there any delay of the reading?

by **TimEggers** on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:58 am

My Anita idles at 218+F (very hot) and I like a flush-and-go method. I'll prepare my basket then flush until the readout says 200F (for my current blend) then immediately lock and pull. The super hot group will keep the reading tight and the espresso great (for my tastes). I can flush to any temp around 200F to reliably affect the brew temperature (without all the waiting). :roll:

I've experimented all across the P-STAT range and found that the flush-and-go on the Anita works best at a high P-STAT setting. The added bonus is fast group recovery (I detest waiting on the HX circuit) and strong steam power (but I never make milk drinks anymore) :roll:

.

Frankly I couldn't careless about water usage either, the tank is easy to refill and I like having fresh water in there anyways. Fill once a day and life is good.

by **sweaner** on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:12 am

Tim, what is your Pstat setting? I am now at 1.1 and am using a similar technique, flushing to 203.


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