My first HB post!

I've been reading different websites and forums feverishly over the last few weeks in an attempt to learn everything I can about Espresso! I plan to buy a home semi-commercial/prosumer level setup and am currently leaning towards a QM Vetrano 2B or Izzo Alex Duetto 3.0 with a Bartaza Forte-AP or Mazzer Mini-E grinder (the super jolly will be too big for my available space).

Everything I've read has made sense regarding dosing and tamping, except when it comes to the 'grooming' technique. 'Grooming' describes the process of moving the grounds back and forth on the top of the basket in an attempt to create a level and more evenly distributed ground surface prior to tamping. As a result of this process, 'excess' grounds are removed/brushed off from the basket if they lie above the top of the basket once all gaps have been filled.

When dialing in a grinder, machine, or coffee blend, it is often desired to weigh the amount of coffee being put into the basket. My confusion lies in combining the technique of increasing the dose size while grooming the grounds in the basket. When you use a finger or straight-edge to remove any excess grounds that are above the top of the basket, you are essentially removing part of your dose. If I use the grooming technique and continue to change my dose as I'm dialing in my grind then I would think (my uneducated assumption) the amount of coffee in the basket remains the same despite my increase in dose. So I can increase my dose amount my 0.5g several times but still end up with the same amount of coffee in the basket (assuming I don't change the grinder setting) since I'm brushing 'excess' grounds off of the basket.

I'm not sure if I'm trying to combine two different techniques or am simply misunderstanding a key point to dialing in a machine / diagnosing a shot. I understand the concept of spinning the basket/portafilter during dosing or using the WDT to get a more even grind distribution in the basket. I personally love the idea of dialing in by weight (which is why the Forte-AP is appealing for simplicity) since I can easily adjust this variable while maintaining all the others constant to get my 'perfect' shot (with recently roasted beans, of course!). To me it makes sense to get as even of a distribution of the grounds in the basket as possible with my little mountain of coffee, and then use the nutation tamping method (or similar) to get the pile more evenly distributed on the top of the basket prior to tamping. This way I'm not eliminating grounds that I'm using as part of my dialing-in process by brushing them out of the basket prior to tamping, so increasing the time/weight of a dose will provide the desired effect on the shot pull.

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated! I feel as though I'm mixing together separate techniques into one which is causing the confusion...

Don't over think it. Bottom line- do as little as possible in terms of preparation. A lot of what needs to be done will be determined by the grinder and how you use it. Through trial and error you will find what works. A bottomless portafilter will reveal problems in preparation. Worry less. Brew more. Be patient.

Randy G. wrote: Worry less. Brew more. Be patient.

Besides being great, cheerful advice, this could be a cool tag line!

Randy G. wrote:Don't over think it. ... Worry less. Brew more. Be patient.

I agree with John - great advice Randy! I'll do my best to keep things simple. Also, I just discovered your webpage recently and have been thoroughly enjoying reading your reviews and techniques. Thanks for all your contributions thus far!!

When I set about systematically trying to determine the best preparation techniques to get an even pour, I found that if I weighed my dose and didn't over dose for the basket, I didn't have to do all the leveling and grooming of the grounds. So I would definitely recommend weighing your doses, err on the "dose lower grind finer side" and keep it as simple as you can.

Firstly, I think the consensus in this board is that Forte AP produces a better grind compared to Mini-E. I don't own both and feel free to correct me.

Secondly, if I understand this correctly, your confusion arises from the definition of dose. The dose is not the weight mass of the coffee before the "grooming". The dose is the weight mass of the coffee you actually brew with (i.e. the mass of the puck when you lock your portafilter into the group).

Hope that helps.

PS: I don't know where I get this but I have a impression that Forte has the same grind quality as Vario. Secondly, you can dose more (overdose) by compacting the grind. For example, you could tap the portafilter/basket, do a light tamp before putting more coffee into the basket, or use Chicago Chop.

tburres wrote:So I would definitely recommend weighing your doses, err on the "dose lower grind finer side" and keep it as simple as you can.

Sounds like a good approach to deal with my concern. Thanks for the input!

thomas5267 wrote:Firstly, I think the consensus in this board is that Forte AP produces a better grind compared to Mini-E. I don't own both and feel free to correct me.

Secondly, if I understand this correctly, your confusion arises from the definition of dose. The dose is not the weight mass of the coffee before the "grooming". The dose is the weight mass of the coffee you actually brew with (i.e. the mass of the puck when you lock your portafilter into the group).

Hope that helps.

PS: I don't know where I get this but I have a impression that Forte has the same grind quality as Vario. Secondly, you can dose more (overdose) by compacting the grind. For example, you could tap the portafilter/basket, do a light tamp before putting more coffee into the basket, or use Chicago Chop.

Thomas, my initial desire for the Forte-AP was because it is essentially the Vario & Vario-W in one unit with the Vario grind quality. I was, for a while, convinced I was going to get a Mazzer Super Jolly Electric but didn't think I have the space. After re-evaluating where I'm going to place my espresso setup I think I actually would have the space for a larger grinder so may move to the larger burr class. I'm in the process of also purchasing a french press so having something with the ease of use and grind settings like the Forte-AP is definitely appealing. I got to see an Anfim Caimano Titanium grinder in action yesterday and was very impressed, so I might also take a look at the Anfim Caimano (with doser and not titanium burrs) to compete with the SJ-E.

I definitely misunderstood the definition of 'dose' if the way you define it is accurate. I will definitely be doing my best when distributing the grounds into the basket to get as even and compact of a dose before tamping. I appreciate the advice and will definitely play around with settling the grounds during dosing.