I'm thinking of upgrading my grinder and since I use the Weiss Distribution Technique (WDT) and grind directly into the basket via a "yogurt funnel" my first thought was to go with something like the Macap Doserless grinder (Dan -- I seem to remember a post where you were going to do a review on the Macap MC4 doserless -- true?).

But before I look at doserless models I was thinking that left out potentially some pretty great doser grinders (e.g., Cimbali Jr) and started wondering about how people with doser grinders are utilizing WDT. Today, I'm using a Virtuoso and grind directly into the funnel/basket combo. Before grinding I take the basket out the of PF which for me makes it easy and neat to grind and tamp. This also makes it very simple if I periodically want to throw the basket onto a kitchen scale to check the dose/weight. I don't make alot of shots during the day so I don't have to worry about speed.

Looking at some of the excellent doser grinders it's not obvious if any allow for the PF rest to removed nor what the distance is between the rest and the grinding chute. Does anyone use a "shortened" yogurt funnel with a doser grinder? I assume there isn't any room. Do most individuals just dose into the PF and then add the "funnel"? I would love the convenience of not holding the basket, but of dosing using the funnel which makes things very tidy, and of keeping the PF in the machine to keep warm and of just tamping the basket (which on a flat surface is easier for me).

Are there very many WDT fans among the doser crowd? What approach do you take?

rjkramek wrote:I'm thinking of upgrading my grinder and since I use the Weiss Distribution Technique (WDT) and grind directly into the basket via a "yogurt funnel" my first thought was to go with something like the Macap Doserless grinder (Dan -- I seem to remember a post where you were going to do a review on the Macap MC4 doserless -- true?).

But before I look at doserless models I was thinking that left out potentially some pretty great doser grinders (e.g., Cimbali Jr) and started wondering about how people with doser grinders are utilizing WDT. Today, I'm using a Virtuoso and grind directly into the funnel/basket combo. Before grinding I take the basket out the of PF which for me makes it easy and neat to grind and tamp. This also makes it very simple if I periodically want to throw the basket onto a kitchen scale to check the dose/weight. I don't make alot of shots during the day so I don't have to worry about speed.

Looking at some of the excellent doser grinders it's not obvious if any allow for the PF rest to removed nor what the distance is between the rest and the grinding chute. Does anyone use a "shortened" yogurt funnel with a doser grinder? I assume there isn't any room. Do most individuals just dose into the PF and then add the "funnel"? I would love the convenience of not holding the basket, but of dosing using the funnel which makes things very tidy, and of keeping the PF in the machine to keep warm and of just tamping the basket (which on a flat surface is easier for me).

Are there very many WDT fans among the doser crowd? What approach do you take?

What follows are my *opinions* so take them for what they are worth.

In my opinion you are turning espressomaking, which should be a fairly easy and enjoyable process, into a chore, a PITA. If you get yourself a decent grinder with a decent doser, you can thwack the doser lever as the grinder grinds and the coffee will distribute itself as individual particles in your portafilter. If you use a bottomless PF, which you will find will improve your technique and quite possibly also your espresso, you can move the PF around on the doser fork as you thwack and get a pretty good distribution which you can then make even better with a finger sweep. Decide how much coffee you want to put into the PF and put that same amount of coffee in there each time. This does not require a scale, it requires VISUAL INSPECTION. I myself make a mound and I have weighed the PF basket several times on an accurate gram scale and every time it has been within half a gram of 18g.

Decide what tamping pressure you want to use and use it consistently. My tamps are very light, probably around 5 lbs., but my grinder is set for this and if I tamped differently then I'd need a different grind.

Personally speaking, I'd restrict dissecting needles to the freshman biology lab, for use on frogs. I use my funnels only for refilling liquid soap dispensers.

ken
p.s. there are a number of good grinders; I have a (actually 2) Cimbali Juniors and like them a lot.

Ken Fox wrote:What follows are my *opinions* so take them for what they are worth.

..............

ken
p.s. there are a number of good grinders; I have a (actually 2) Cimbali Juniors and like them a lot.

Ken --

I noticed better/more consistent results when I started using WDT (and I do have a naked PF which I made and use). I didn't mean to imply I check the weight all the time -- only occasionally to see how consistent I am and in my case anything much over 14g for a double and the puck hits the dispersion screen.

It could be that using WDT just made up for the inconsistent grind from the grinder and that by using something like a Cimbali, et al., the shots would be the same/better and quicker. I'll have to admit the process I use today doesn't seem like a PITA but then that's what I got used to . Certainly the thing I'd like is to have something (stepless grinder) that allows better control over the grind since today the difference for me between grinders steps is 10-12secs (though "dialing in" is easy since basically I'm looking at one to two settings max).

I love the look of the Cimbali and that's what got me thinking before upgrading. But since I've never owned a doser part of the uncertainity is understanding how the routine I use today would change (and maybe for the better) or could be adapted.

rjkramek wrote:Dan -- I seem to remember a post where you were going to do a review on the Macap MC4 doserless -- true?

The Macap doserless is the same grinder as the M4 with doser. Since the review already represents two variants of the same base grinder (stepped and stepless), it doesn't seem necessary to include a third. That said, I did use it briefly at the SCAA conference. Like other doserless grinders, it clumps more than the equivalent doser model. Threads on CoffeeGeek from M4 doserless owners confirm my observation (sorry, CG is down, I cannot give you a link). Arguably this is irrelevant for WDT devotees, which leads to your other questions...

rjkramek wrote:Do most individuals just dose into the PF and then add the "funnel"? ... Are there very many WDT fans among the doser crowd? What approach do you take?

I go through phases of purely holistic just-by-feel barista technique as Ken advocates to highly regimented technique (e.g., WDT, grams scale, timer, shotglassses, Macap auto-tamper... the whole shooting match). Exercises for tuning your barista techniques documents my back and forth machinations. I'm back in regimented mode since EspressoFest after watching Abe's machine-like precision and exceptionally consistent results. It won't be long before I switch back to holistics, specifically because I want to continue to develop my intuitive ability rather than rely on tools.

In my opinion, the WDT compensates for grinder deficiencies. Although the Mazzer Mini is heralded as a great grinder, it benefits markedly from the extra WDT steps by improving the distribution and evenness. I saw little need for the WDT with other grinders like the Mazzer Robur or Versalab M3. Back to your specific questions, I dose into the portafilter, add the cutdown yogurt cup "funnel", stir, sweep level across (or use the Stockfleths move if I want to updose further), and then tamp. The extra WDT-related steps add about 15 seconds to the process.

The initial premise for the WDT was to compensate for grinder shortcomings. John uses a modified doserless Mazzer which will toss some boulder sized clumps. Some of the smaller units also extrude the grinds from the chute, think of a sausage grinder stuffed with coffee. The grinds come out compressed. My Gaggia MDF would do that. The higher end grinders grind with sufficient speed that the grinds are blown out and you get much less clumping.

Personally, I like my doser. Pulling while it is grinding breaks up most all of the clumps. My Mazzer Mini grinds just a bit slower than my Cimbali Jr. Personal preference, I like the grind/dose quality and speed of my Cimbali better than my Mazzer, but either (or the Macap) will last a home user a lifetime.

cannonfodder wrote:The initial premise for the WDT was to compensate for grinder shortcomings. John uses a modified doserless Mazzer which will toss some bolder sized clumps. Some of the smaller units also extrude the grinds from the chute, think of a sausage grinder stuffed with coffee. The grinds come out compressed.

To be honest, the initial premise was just general mucking around, trying to improve my naked extractions. But on reflection, the reason why it helped was obvious: clumping and uneven distribution produced by most grinders. Clumping tends to be worse in doserless models. I also have a doserless Nemox Lux (nice little grinder, aside from being slow and noisy), and it also clumps. OTOH, most dosers throw the grounds off-center. In either case, you need to develop techniques to overcome these problems.

We all have our pet peeves. Mine include stale coffee grounds and waste. Both are IMHO associated with dosers. I spent quite a bit of time trying to mod my Mazzer Super Jolly doser to eliminate stale grinds, and never really succeeded. After all, it was designed for much larger volumes than typical home use. The doser on my Bunn/Cunill was better, but sweeping out either doser was always a PITA. In the end, I removed the SJ doser and never went back. My current doserless configuration is a removable spout that fits into a rubber gasket. After grinding, I remove the spout, shake any excess grounds into the PF, then sweep out the grinder chute. This takes less time and effort than sweeping out the doser, and leaves behind no stale grounds and no wasted coffee - zero, zilch, nada.



Until I can afford an M3, I'll stick with my Mazzer and spend a few extra seconds on the WDT. But I may be biased...

- John

RapidCoffee: That's a really-interesting mod. It looks quite clean. What did you use for the copper spout? Is it an off-the-shelf part? And what fabrication skills did it require?

I've done a doserless mod and have been using it for about a year without any issues. But I'm always looking for new approaches, so long as it's easy to put together and does not require any fancy modifications. The part I would wonder about this approach is the relatively long fall out of the grinder chute, and whether the short spout provides for efficient contact with the copper for grounding static. For the former, do you hold up your portafilter up to the spout and dispense directly?

FYI here's my solution for going doserless, using off-the-shelf parts and required just modest fabrication skills... I have a long fall since I chose to dispense into a metalic bowl, which I feel also increases the anti-stat efficiency by increasing the likelihood of contact with a grounded metal sleeve lining the ABS.

doserless mod using 2 ABS couplers (lined with copper foil for static control)

cgfan wrote:RapidCoffee: That's a really-interesting mod. It looks quite clean. What did you use for the copper spout? Is it an off-the-shelf part? And what fabrication skills did it require?

I've done a doserless mod and have been using it for about a year without any issues. But I'm always looking for new approaches, so long as it's easy to put together and does not require any fancy modifications. The part I would wonder about this approach is the relatively long fall out of the grinder chute, and whether the short spout provides for efficient contact with the copper for grounding static. For the former, do you hold up your portafilter up to the spout and dispense directly?

Hi Andy. We seem to have come up with similar ideas for going doserless.

For my doserless mod, I pulled the doser, then attached a piece of aluminum flashing to cover the area. IIRC, I made a paper template, cut the aluminum sheet with an X-acto knife, and drilled two holes for the screws at the top. Gasket maker seals the bottom, but even a strip of tape would suffice. The rubber washer is glued over the grinds chute opening, and the copper spout slips in and out. Here is another pic. All parts are inexpensive and readily available at any decent hardware store.

I dispense directly into the portafilter. You can see a walk-up video of the grinder in use here.

FYI, here's an updated video showing the full workflow of the doserless Super Jolly mod and the use of the canning funnel:

...

Quite interesting as an OCD case study , but I don't think it is a routine I would recommend to anyone. Suggested treatment: spend an afternoon watching and talking to the baristas at Elixir.

cgfan wrote:FYI, here's an updated video showing the full workflow of the doserless Super Jolly mod and the use of the canning funnel

I'm with Marshall on this one: your routine could probably be streamlined while still remaining just as effective. But meanwhile, two questions:

1. Your worktable appears to be tilted at an 80 degree angle from horizontal. How do you keep everything from sliding off?
2. How do you manage to pull shots while simultaneously playing that great Flamenco music?

And I forgot to give kudos for not weighing each shot, which is the final symptom of the crippling (and potentially life-threatening) condition known as "everything I know about making espresso I learned on the Internet."

OCD? Aren't we all, at least those of us who have spent countless dollars, hours and years perfecting the drink and participating in forums such as H-B.com? Though I can't imagine ever reaching anywhere near 700 posts!

Re. the video and my approach, I wouldn't recommend it to most. But I would of thought that there might be a more receptive audience here, particularly given the nature of this audience (or was I mistaken?), this website (after all it is called home-barista and not commercial-barista...), and the particular nature of our chosen beverage with its endless technical complexities, perceptual nuances, not to mention its place in the history and lore of man.

Which part would you suggest I remove?

The brushing of the grinder? Not doing that would admit a sizeable percentage of old grounds to be retained for the next shot. Yuk!

The brushing and rinsing of the showerhead and portafilter? I can't even imagine purposely leaving behind traces of old and spent grounds to bake in the machine until it gets added in with the next shot. Yuk!

Perhaps this is being misunderstood as something to be used in the commercial environment. That's certanly not the intent. However I'd respect any shop that would have the dedication and commitment to find whatever time they can to clean these critical areas.

As a side note who has not heard many an espresso enthusiast say that the best drinks they can find are at home, in spite of some very good cafes becoming more and more available. Sure that's a hollow claim if said against the likes of *$'s and other mass-merchants of the drink, but I'm sure some of these claims can stand up to the test against some of the very best of cafes as well. Amongst the latter my pet theory is that the home enthusiast can indulge in rituals that the commercial shops simply cannot afford, and hence employ a more perfect union between espresso's known "best principles" to one's actual routine.

I'm certainly open to streamlining it if it can remove unnecessary steps, but I guess that's open to interpretation what is necessary and what is not. For me it's all about the taste and the resulting quality of the drink.

I'd welcome any and all suggestions...

(Arguably wiping down the surfaces with a towel does not contribute to the quality of the drink, but that's only done to protect the rubbed-in finish of the custom-built worksurface. Unfortunately the protective glass top doesn't quite cover the entire surface...)

(BTW the incredible flamenco playing in the background, believe it or not, was that of a friend of mine who recorded it when he was still in high school!)

Marshall wrote:And I forgot to give kudos for not weighing each shot, which is the final symptom of the crippling (and potentially life-threatening) condition known as "everything I know about making espresso I learned on the Internet."

That's dangerously close to the 'If you don't do things like I do, you're doing it all wrong' disease that you get when you stay too long in the ivory tower.
I learned a lot from the internet. I learned a lot of it right here. And I make a damned good espresso, too. I hear a lot of things here and at other coffee sites, and I have time to try quite a few of them. John sent me a coupla frog skewers, and I use them. Mostly with the Rockys, but there are a few coffees that need it with the Mazzers as well. And, I use a funnel, too! I use it 'cause it's easy, and it saves a lot of cleanup.
Look you, do what works for you, but don't start telling folk that the perfectly good tools and techniques that they use are wrong, especially if the reason that they're wrong is that they were cadged from the very forum that you're suggesting isn't a good place to get advice on making espresso.
I weigh my beans before I grind, and grind per dose. It's a lot easier to allow the tools to do the work so that I can pay attention to visitors instead of focusing on what I think 18g looks like. (BTW, I can pretty much dose to within .2g of 18 without the scale if I'm on my own).

Do what you want. Do what works. Do NOT listen to folk on the innerwebnets that suggest that you're not a real Jedi if you don't use the Force...

My two suggestions for 'points of streamlining' would be direct-dosing into the portafilter, and tamping only once. I understand that direct-dosing isn't feasible on your funnel-thing, though, right? Another possibility is putting on a hopper and a day's worth of coffee in it, and using timing and visual evaluation to dose your coffee (then a leveling chop/whatever you fancy to get a consistent dose). It's worth a try, if you haven't. as a longtime single-doser, I resisted even trying it for a long time, but was impressed with the increased consistency I got with it when I finally gave in. This is a 'some-waste' method, but then, your 'no-waste' method involves leveling over the knockbox as well, right?

Anyway, as one OCD barista to another, while I side with Chris philosophically (do what you enjoy), I think Andy and Marshall have a point--I can appreciate where Marshall comes from. Watching a master barista pull perfect shots without any visible effort is a thing to behold; it's downright mesmerizing. I would seriously question how common it is to see a home-barista that thinks their coffee is better than the best shops. There are levels of shops even among third wave shops, and I think it takes a great deal of pretense to sneer at the likes of a champion barista on equipment that [s]he makes hundreds of shots a day on. I don't really think it happens--but I'm known to be wrong on 'occasion.'

Finally, FWIW, I wouldn't suggest eliminating the brushing and wiping. I brush out the chute and brush off the doser vanes per-shot, onto the top of the coffee mound, and I wipe the grinds off the screen after each shot, doing a water backflush at the end of each session throughout the day. Dirty groups and dirty grinders gross me out too.

...while I side with Chris philosophically (do what you enjoy)... ... Watching a master barista pull perfect shots without any visible effort is a thing to behold; it's downright mesmerizing. I would seriously question how common it is to see a home-barista that thinks their coffee is better than the best shops.... ... I think it takes a great deal of pretense to sneer at the likes of a champion barista on equipment that [s]he makes hundreds of shots a day on.

Just because I'm very commonly mis-understood (due to an ongoing lack of didacticity and a good editor...), I would humbly suggest that we have issues that master baristi don't face, and that a fair amount of my morning ritual is based on not wanting to clean the floors and counters too often and quite often not building more'n a doppio per session.
My shots are on par with some of the best shops here in town, and I'm pulling better 'spro than at least 90% of the shops here. Trust me, that's like saying I can paint better'n Helen Keller could.
I think that if we were using the kit that champion baristi use, willing to put in the time that champion baristi do, and pulling the sheer number of shots that they do, in their environment, quite a lot of the moves and techniques that we use would be superfluous.
My point is that you should be comfortable doing anything that helps you through your morning coffee.
I think the point that Marshall was making was to make sure that it actually helps. I found myself using techniques on the Majors and the Astoria that I'd learned on Silvia and Rocky. Some of them still work (yoghurt cup to keep the counter clean), and some of them made the coffee worse. Guess which ones I kept? ; >
Use whatever technique makes the coffee better/easier, regardless of where you learned it. But yeah, test it against not using it, and if you can't tell the difference, or the coffee is better/easier without it, dump it.

i've tried dosing by volume with my Silvia. is this even realistic? when i do things just as i see Baca do in the Ritual video, i get so much coffee that it contacts the shower screen. it obviously works fine with his equipment, but with a low headspace machine, i don't know how to get around weighing (other than a darkroom timer or mini-e). i'm certainly open to suggestions.

I don't understand the hate for weighing your beans. After all, I think the vast majority of us are pulling the shots strictly for our own use out of our homes. A barista in a commercial setting has a lot of demands placed on them, and this of course creates pros and cons.

I started weighing my beans when I was traveling on business and had to take my smokeless roaster along with me. It created such a small amount of roasted coffee that even a little waste would leave me roasting several times a week. That got really annoying. Being more accurate to the gram gave me an extra handful of shots a week.

Practical? For home use, sure. It takes me an extra 3 seconds to weigh. If I was pulling dozens of shots a day I'd be content with a more volumetric method.