Let's try a little test, shall we? (Marshall, you may be excused. I know you have a new toy to play with. ) Those who think that dosing by volume is accurate "enough", give your best estimate of the weight of these four doses.

No tricks, just four different doses in a standard LaSpaz 53mm double basket.

Same coffee, same grinder, same setting?

Sure. In fact, it was all the same coffee, just repacked. No tricks. I'll post actual weights tomorrow.

Here's another simple test, which you can try on your own equipment:
Ask a friend to pick an arbitrary dose between 14g and 18g. Try to hit that dose by eyeballing the volume, then check your accuracy with a scale. I'd be astonished if anyone can consistently get within 0.1g. That accuracy is trivial with a scale.

My point is obvious. If you weigh the dose, you know what you're getting. If you don't, you're just guesstimating.

That said... I am not an advocate of weighing every dose. In fact, I only weigh when I'm testing new gear or coffees. But I admire those who take the extra time to accurately measure their dose. Variance in "eyeball" dosing is greater than most care to admit, especially in the home environment.

What's wrong with guesstimating? Does espresso have to be the exact same everytime?

I mentioned earlier that I typically overfill, level and tamp. Pretty simple and it does lock me into a pretty much set dose. I have done your experiment John and your right, the does does vary. Typically in the range of .3-gram with the occasional .5-gram, if I'm getting sloppy.

My point is simply that when I'm paying attention to what I'm doing volume dosing as described above provides me with an espresso that tastes consistent to me. I don't claim that any method I employ is the universal best, but to my tongue my scale doesn't need to be out of the drawer all to often; even if that puts at risk of being labeled an lazy espresso ignorant fool.

I'll admit I could never come close when eyeballing dose below the rim, thats something I could never quite do. Overfilling and leveling may be lazy (on my part) but I tend to pick blends that work real well at the dose which this method produces. Damn guess I am lazy...

Personally, I sort of look at it like this.

Just like you use a timer and a thermometer when you are getting to know your machine, whether it be for steaming milk, timing the flush, timing the shot, or a grouphead therm*, eventually, you drop the therm for the milk, and you drop the timer for the shot.

So, should we be using a therm everytime we steam milk, because we're at home, and why not be perfect? I dont use a therm in my milk anymore, except for "now and then", when I want to make sure Im still in the right ballpark, and, going by feel, I can consistently stop the milk at just the right temp so it wont "coast" past 155F.


I dont think there is ANYTHING wrong with weighing coffee, or doing the WDT. Heck, I weigh my coffee, every shot, and I used the WDT for a SOLID 8 months. I weigh my coffee simply because, why not? Less waste leads to less cleanup, and potentially, another shot or two. But its also out of Habit. I would LIKE to not weigh out my coffee everytime, and just use it as a check, like a bottomless, but i wont be attempting that until I can put a Photo-Timer on my grinder. The major is too fast, FOR ME, to Eyeball the grind and dose, without grinding too much.

The WDT-I call it my Insurance Policy Against Sink Shots. And, I must say, I LOVE this technique, and, up until just recently, from the time I got my Anita, I used it every single shot. And because of it, I literally have not thrown out a single shot because of channeling or under/over extraction, once I got used to machine, about a month. However, Just like I no longer use a Therm for my milk, or a Timer for my extractions, if there is no NEED for me to preform the WDT, then why do it? The whole point is the make better espresso, and hell, if it takes less steps to get there, isn't that good? If it makes you feel like you have improved as a barista, its good. That how I feel anyway.

For me, dropping the WDT has made the whole process more fun. I can add my dose to the grinder, dose right into the PF into a nice mound, do a quick Nutate and a light tamp, lock in and pull a nice shot. I dont need to dose into a yogurt cup or stir up the coffee and level it out. Again, I DID do this for months, and I STILL dont think there is ANYTHING wrong with doing it, but, IF ITS NOT NECESSARY, they WHY would I still do it?

And I agree with a statement typed more then once in this thread. Making Good Espresso is the Whole Point. If a few extra seconds or steps get you there, then BY ALL MEANS, DO THEM.

Oh, and aside from making it more fun, I no longer need to have a min-whisk and yogurt cup on my bench


Whatever steps you do or do not take to make your espresso, as long as you are enjoying the process, as well as the espresso, then you're clearly doing it correctly.

FWIW, with the Elektra Nino dosing by time I get variations in the range of 0.3 to 0.6 grammes between double doses in a Cremina double basket (small - around 14.5g), generally in the lower end of that range and once in a blue moon (for who knows what reason) 0.7 or even 0.9 - the biggest variation I encountered when I was playing with this. Some of the variation depends on me being attentive to moving the PF so as to contain the grounds and prevent them from bouncing/spilling out at the end.

Do I notice any difference in the cup? Well, I've not done a side-by-side, but I'd say no - and believe me I've looked/tasted hard.

I just do a very light nutating tamp after this, ending in a light straight down. I do not tap, level or anything else. In fact my experience is that the more fiddling, the worse the results. I reckon it's nearly all in the grind....

So I'd echo and reverse what other have written. If you get as good or even a better cup with less steps in the process, that heightens the enjoyment. Well, it does for me.

Cheers

Mike

TimEggers wrote:What's wrong with guesstimating? Does espresso have to be the exact same everytime?

I mentioned earlier that I typically overfill, level and tamp. Pretty simple and it does lock me into a pretty much set dose. I have done your experiment John and your right, the does does vary. Typically in the range of .3-gram with the occasional .5-gram, if I'm getting sloppy.

Here is the reason why it is wrong for me. As I wrote before, some of us have ended up with the conclusion that the need to carefully control dose weight is (at least in part) related to the size of the dose itself. My machine (Vivaldi II) is very forgiving of distribution carelessness. (as echoed by some of my fellow Vivaldi users). I dose low (around 15g most of the time, with adjustment for prevailing conditions) and the underdose (-0.3g) gives horrible pour and tate results, while overdosing (+0.3g) degrades the taste significantly. I did experiment with larger dose (16.5 to 20g) and indeed I can agree that larger variation (+/- 0.5g or more) had much less effect.

So, again it is a matter of taste. One (Mano dell'operatore) has to adapt his process in relation to the limitation/characteristics of the 3 M's (Macinadosatore (grinder-doser), Miscela (coffee blend), Macchina espresso (espresso machine)) to get to the espresso he likes. I know that it is cliché to write this but it is the core of the issue here.

After a while of working with a setup, one can develop techniques that will allow him to modify or get away completely from certain parts of the process based on his abilities, the coffee and the equipment one is using.

After re-reading my-self I realise that on top of repeating what other people have written I am now repeating what I myself have written. For this I apologise, but nonetheless I sign.


As for the test, I know from personal experience, with the same basket, I easily can see a variation between 16 and 20. Of course it depends on what was done to that coffee...

16-20g is a significant difference. But from 15 (your ideal) to 15.3 (where you find a shot significantly degraded) is likely less than the variations you will see during the day due to all sorts of other things that can affect grind consistency, including relative humidity, ambient temperature, air pressure....

go to your favorite local bakery.

ask the person in charge if they weigh the flour or measure by volume.

weighing the flour is the only way to get a consistent measurement of flour for consistent results out of the oven.

i think the same rule applies to making espresso.

jon

I was over at another HB members home a few months ago helping him dial in his kit. We had the same scale. I weighed out the first 4 or so doses to get us in the range we wanted. The next several I dosed by volume/sight then for kicks we weighed them to see how close I was. Every one was within 0.3 grams of the target. I still use a scale when I am working on a new coffee or basket so I get a feel for bean/basket. But after a few dozen i put the scale away.