Marshall wrote:Everything in this thread has been tapped before. Andy Schecter and I were arguing "art v. science" seven years ago on alt.coffee.

Does that mean that I have reached where you were 7 years ago? I will see this as a good thing. THat being said; do you have the same position today that you had 7 years ago?

So is Andy fully on your side now with the matter settled by all but us newbies or is the seven year alt.coffee war recruiting new soldiers for the battle? Have either of you budged in seven years or are we in for stalemate trench warefare ala WW1?

edit- I see a similar thought from whale while I was typing this.

Stuggi wrote:I for one is getting a bit tired of all these cooking and baking comparisons, and the following 5-10 posts discussing the accuracy of the comparison.

Better yet, let's everyone go and look up the high school definition of 'analogy', 'metaphor', and 'simile'.

I truly believe that those that bring up that they aren't perfect equals are just tossing red herring into the discussion, and know the definition of all of the above words.

C'mon folks, these kinds of comparisons are not intended to be taken literally. Think about it a minute. When I compare espresso machines to trucks, I am certainly not suggesting that I can drive my espresso machine to work.

Psyd wrote:When I compare espresso machines to trucks, I am certainly not suggesting that I can drive my espresso machine to work.

No! I was really looking forward to get the plans from you and modify the Vivaldi.

Whale wrote:Does that mean that I have reached where you were 7 years ago? I will see this as a good thing. THat being said; do you have the same position today that you had 7 years ago?

GC7 wrote:So is Andy fully on your side now with the matter settled by all but us newbies or is the seven year alt.coffee war recruiting new soldiers for the battle? Have either of you budged in seven years or are we in for stalemate trench warefare ala WW1?

Yes, it was quite gratifying. Andy conceded his whole viewpoint was wrong, gave his "Frankensilvia" to a home for orphaned engineers, and bought himself a lever machine. No, actually, I teased him about how excessive Frankensilvia was and then watched as some of his ideas were incorporated into commercial machines around the world.

My wife is a chemist, some of my best friends are scientists, and I obviously have an interest in owning the most technically advanced equipment. So, I am not a Luddite.

But, I am the legal adviser to several barista organizations and competitions. I spend A LOT of time with great baristas and have tremendous respect for them. I consider them masters of their craft and try to learn from them.

My observation over the years is that people who are new to espresso making can learn a lot on line, but they can also pick up some bad habits in a blind-leading-the-blind fashion. I find it particularly frustrating when people who do not have access to first-rate coffee bars compare their home brew to the local swill and conclude they have little to learn from skilled professionals.

Marshall wrote:My observation over the years is that people who are new to espresso making can learn a lot on line, but they can also pick up some bad habits in a blind-leading-the-blind fashion. I find it particularly frustrating when people who do not have access to first-rate coffee bars compare their home brew to the local swill and conclude they have little to learn from skilled professionals.

One's bad habit can turn into another one's great invention... ideas come from many places. Even a blind man can plant a seed.

Do not be so quick to conclude what we conclude. It is not because I think that I can pull a better shot than the kid at the local "swill", as you say, that I think I have nothing to learn from skilled professionals. I was only saying that these skilled professionals that I could learn from are far in between.

SL28ave wrote:Find me a chef who has put as much effort into food as I've put into coffee as a barista since I was 17; you can start by looking for people who weigh over 600 lbs.

Actually virtually all the professional chefs I know -- and I know many -- weigh nothing close to 300, let alone 600 pounds, and they've been cooking professionally from the age of 16-17. Some are now in their mid-30s, others are in their mid-40s, some are in their 50s, and some are in their 60s. Then again, I know several people I would consider excellent home cooks, and it's much more likely that weight is a problem for them, rather than for the professional chefs.

Just out of curiosity, since you started as a barista at 17, and list your occupation on your profile as "student," just how long have you been a barista?

Cheers,
Jason

I've been a barista for 10 years now (27 years old); though it must be said, having been George Howell's protege for 5 years is an immense enhancing twist that I benefit from. I became a general college student last year, probably going to major in something like "agronomy" at University of Maryland. But, today, for example, most of my time at school was spent studying the rivers that sprawl the beloved Kenyan coffee co-ops, which I promise is not part of the school curriculum.

SL28ave wrote:I've been a barista for 10 years now (27 years old); though it must be said, having been George Howell's protege for 5 years is an immense enhancing twist that I benefit from. I became a general college student last year, probably going to major in something like "agronomy" at University of Maryland. But, today, for example, most of my time at school was spent studying the rivers that sprawl the beloved Kenyan coffee co-ops, which I promise is not part of the school curriculum.

OK, do you weigh between 300 and 600 lbs?

ken

SL28ave wrote:But, today, for example, most of my time at school was spent studying the rivers that sprawl the beloved Kenyan coffee co-ops, which I promise is not part of the school curriculum.

It seems that a lot of time now days is nowhere near as interesting as studying sprawling rivers in Kenya. Even if you are not getting shot at.

-C