For me, dropping the "extra stuff" made the whole process a lot more fun to do.

I would like to get away from weighing out each dose as well, for the same reason. In doing so, Id like to keep some amount of beans in the hopper. However, since, during any given 12-14 day period Ive got 3, sometimes 4 different coffees on my bench, I add per dose.

Im looking to buy a Gralab Timer for my Major. The major is really fast, and its tough to keep up when your dosing. I either get a half-assed dose, or I grind way too much. Having a Timer will allow me to not worry about turning off the grinder in time, which would let me keep beans in a hopper. Then if I want to switch coffees, just lift off the hopper/dump them out, do a quick purge, and the new coffee is ready to go.

For me, its not about emulating what goes on in competition or a Cafe. Dropping the WDT and Distribution after dosing made the whole process more fun. If I could drop weighing out the coffee, that would be nice. Another grinder would also be nice, but a Timer will work for now.

One thing is for sure. My yogurt cup and mini-whisk have been officially retired.

Funny thing: of the four "M's" of espresso (Miscela, Macinazione, Macchina, Mano), there is widespread agreement that the latter (barista skills) is critically important. Then why are all of you supposed aficionados bragging about your sloppy technique? "Oh, I just toss the grinds in the basket and pull my shot. I've tested this, and it gives me better results than careful dosing and distribution."

Yeah right.

RapidCoffee wrote:Funny thing: of the four "M's" of espresso (Miscela, Macinazione, Macchina, Mano), there is widespread agreement that the latter (barista skills) is critically important. Then why are all of you supposed aficionados bragging about your sloppy technique? "Oh, I just toss the grinds in the basket and pull my shot. I've tested this, and it gives me better results than careful dosing and distribution."

Yeah right.

I think being sloppy is not quite the point of this discussion? If you can get a consistent shot without yogurt cups, bathroom scales or always standing on one leg while grinding to get even grounds distribution in the basket, I'd rather call that experience (probably most pro-baristas would agree ) .

Don't get me wrong - to find a point of reference when you are starting, or as a means of verification whether you are still 'on', scales or other tools are of course fine. However, shouldn't the ultimate goal be to get rid of them?

No, the ultimate goal should be to make excellent espresso. Period. I don't care how you get there.

There is no doubt in my mind that everyone here who achieves that goal, does so because their grind, dose, and distribution are spot on. After prepping hundreds or thousands of shots, you should develop a good feel for dose and distribution, and be able to dose accurately by eye and distribute with a shake of the portafilter. That does nothing to diminish the importance of dose and distribution, which seems to be the underlying tone of this thread.

RapidCoffee wrote:Funny thing: of the four "M's" of espresso (Miscela, Macinazione, Macchina, Mano), there is widespread agreement that the latter (barista skills) is critically important. Then why are all of you supposed aficionados bragging about your sloppy technique? "Oh, I just toss the grinds in the basket and pull my shot. I've tested this, and it gives me better results than careful dosing and distribution."

If you have watched a skilled Italian barista in action, you surely know there is no correlation between skill and fussiness. More likely the opposite. Skill makes most tasks look easy.

RapidCoffee wrote:No, the ultimate goal should be to make excellent espresso. Period. I don't care how you get there.

If I may intervene a bit here, IMHO, there seems to be a few Barista's here stating that they don't need the "voodo" steps to get "there". Some of the other still uses the techniques that gets them the repeatable excellent espresso that they like.

What I think is being argued is that some have achieve so much comfort with there equipment, blend and techniques that they don't need/perform the so called voodoo steps to achieve the excellent espresso. It all fits well with the cooking/baking arguments. If you repeat the same recipe with the same ingredients and the same equipment enough, even the lousiest cook/chemist will achieve a point of comfort where he doesn't need to weigh/measure every thing and can just eyeball it.

I use my scale to experiment with grind setting, dose and with new coffee. When I got the new grinder I had to relearn all the steps. When I got the new machine I had to relearn all the steps... and so on.

I still measure every so often to verify that my eyeball is still properly "calibrated". Same thing with the tamping; I use a Reg because I like the weight and feel but every so often I pull out the Espro to "remind" me of what 30 lbs feels like. I tamp much lighter than 30 lbs.

BTW, my technique is very similar to JohnB, we use the same machine but different grinder and coffee.

JohnB. wrote:I pop the warm basket out of the p/f, lock the p/f back in, wipe & tare the basket, hit the timer, dose into the basket trying for a centered mound, check the weight/correct if necessary, tamp lightly, basket back into the p/f & pull the shot.

But, most of the time, I skip the weigh station and eyeball the dose by volume. It works for me. The very few melt downs are just an indication that my procedure has gone out of "calibration".

What techniques anyone requires will vary depending on their equipment - and what they've found to be the best way to use it. The "mano" is not something in isolation, it's a relationsibp with the equipment to get the best out of it and the beans.

Not levelling is not as simple as it sounds, either: many who are not levelling are doing a "nutating tamp" which is.... er... levelling in another way. And the fact that they're finding more is not needed has as much to do with their grinders as anything else. Some of the high end grinders do a lot of this for one.

In short, do what works for you and your equipment. That's always going to be more enjoyable If someone else finds that unnecessarily finicky on the one hand or sloppy on the other is...well.... simply an indication that they prefer doing otherwise with their equipment.

And even if the equipment is exactly the same.... everyone 's got different hands and is welcome to use them in different ways which shouldn't of course stop us from comparing notes - not least of all since that's what forums such as this (as an excellent example) are intended for..... and I for one have found that very helpful, though I have never found some of the more intricate techniques to help even with my hand grinder... but then that's just me

michaelbenis wrote: Not levelling is not as simple as it sounds, either: many who are not levelling are doing a "nutating tamp" which is.... er... levelling in another way.

I fully agree with you there. I do "nutate" to acheive a level tamped basket. It is the pre-tamping level that I do not do and, I think, we are taking about.

michaelbenis wrote:... And the fact that they're finding more is not needed has as much to do with their grinders as anything else. Some of the high end grinders do a lot of this for one.

There I do not agree. My grinder is in no way considered high end. I use a Rancilio MD40, a slightly better version of the Rocky. Actually it's a lot better but not high end. It extrudes the coffee and in doing so creates tons of clumps. And still I manage to "manage" this without the "voodoo" steps. I do not want to sound like I am bragging but I take some credit in what I produce in the cup.

michaelbenis wrote: ... everyone 's got different hands and is welcome to use them in different ways

This is what the "Mano" portion of the "4 M's" equation is all about

For what it's worth, I think clumping is overrated as a cause of poor extraction. Most clumps are not rock-hard.

I also think tapping, settling and polishing are more likely to exacerbate any problems than solve them.
And I don't think levelling makes a hoot of difference within reason. Distribution on the other hand is a very different thing.

And it seems to me that my experience bears this out.

I'm happy to share that with anyone. But I'm not going to argue the toss and will treat other people's methods with respect.

michaelbenis wrote:I'm happy to share that with anyone. But I'm not going to argue the toss and will treat other people's methods with respect.

I no way am I trying to "argue" or disrespect you or anyone. If it came out that way I am sorry. I'm strongly comparing notes