cafeIKE wrote:... Tolerances and the unwillingness of others to consider them have been the bane of my professional life. I've acquired an avoidance of claiming accuracy better than worst case.

Believe me when I say that I live with the same never ending battle of convincing the powers that be that tolerances MUST be considered! But I also have come to accept that you cannot always assume the worst stack up. This would only lead to over controling, managing, designing and cost.

So I will use my $20.00 "crapola" scale and accept that the accuracy may be less than perfect.

I thought it worth shelling out on an Escali scales that claims 0.1g accuracy. When I use it regularly, the consistency it gives in pour and taste is I think more than adequate and certainly nothing I feel I need worry about. Whether a cheaper scale would have proved as accurate or as long-lasting I have no idea, but I suspect so....

I do, however, wish it didn't switch itself off so quickly..... Sometimes I'll do a top-up from the SJ doser, or a little scrape with the doser lid to get things where I want and the thing's switched itself off! Fortunately the weight of single and double baskets is now etched in my mind, so torturing myself with a little mental arithmetic gets me what I need to know....

Cheers

Mike

FWIW, have the exact same behavior out of mine... As well the tare button is so small that it is difficult to use. So I subject myself to the mental calculation (It should be easy enough but, somehow, early in the morning before the caffeine has kicked in, it just isn't)

I was yesterday considering some extra expense to dig out a model that is easy to tare and will not turn off so quickly.

For those, who care, yesterday morning little experiment session went as follow:

Argento, imported italian blend, inert gas packaged. Last shots from a 1 kilo bag (openned 2 weeks ago).
La Spaziale Vivaldi II.
92° Celsius (197.6 F).
8.8 bars (128 psi).
6 second pre-infusion, 1.7 bar (25 psi) regulated line pressure.
Rancilio MD40 doser grinder. set at 4.5 notch from contact.
All shots pulled and left to settle for approx. 5 minutes. Remaining crema stirred in before first taste.
All shots weighed on $20.00 "crapola" digital scale.
Shots are served in Bodum, pavina double walled shot 2 ounces espresso glass.

1-Double 15g, made a significant attempt at maximizing even distribution with fluffing but with a somewhat large instrument. I don't have a dissecting needle so I use a Stainless nail. Leveled carefully, light tamp while nutating, 2 quick pull out, to "suck" the ground's in, and final tamp with espro click (30 lbs). Polish with tamper weight only.
---> Very good looking pour. Nutty with honey, full bodied, very little acidity, the normal taste for a very good shot of that coffee. Nearly 1 inch of very nice speckled, gooey, crema, persisting and reducing to 1/8" after settling.

2- Single 7.5g. Distribution fluffing. No leveling. Just tapped the basket on the counter and nutating tamp lightly; much lower than 30 lbs (guestimate at 10 lbs).
---> Fast poor, quick blonding. Taste weak, thin bodied, on the bitter side, no honey. Drank half and sinked half. Crema was 1/8", less gooey, lighter color, settles to 1/16" gooey top.

3- Single 7.5g. Grinder set 1 notch lower, No distribution, no leveling just tapping and light nutating tamp.
---> Slower but still fast pour, blonding is much later. Taste thin, no bitterness. Crema is nice and 1/2" settles to 1/16".

4- Double 15g. Grinder set back, no distribution, no leveling no counter tapping and light nutating tamp directly on the top of the mount of coffee (my lazy no fuss way).
---> Very good looking pour. Nutty, more bitter chocolate and less honey than (1), full bodied, very little acidity, the normal taste for a very good shot of that coffee. Nearly 1 inch of very nice speckled, gooey, crema, persisting and reducing to 1/8" after settling.

5- Same as (4), Same results as (4). Did this quickly to get out of the house. You may disregard this one.

This is where I stopped. In conclusion:

I mixed up way to many parameters!
I do not usually make singles, this may account for the poor results of (2) and (3). But It could also be that I just do not like singles.
The difference I saw or tasted between the groomed shot and the 2 non-groomed is more honey, more clarity and a more balanced pleasant acidity. The difference was significant enough that I was disappointed with the non-groomed shot, but the taste was still good both shots were within my normal "newbie" range of variation.

Day two
2.1- Repeat of shot (4); the "lazy way". Same result (as far as memory can tell) as the day before.
2.2- Repeat of shot (1); the "groomed way", but with a safety pin instead of a nail to do the fluffing. WOW! The absolute best shot I ever made!!! Visually the same as the day before. The taste was again much better than (2.1) (the "lazy way"), but even better than the groomed shot (1) from the day before. Nice silky sweet chocolate, honey and fruits. Perfect (from what I have tasted so far) clarity and acidity.

I am going back down to try to repeat...

2.3- The pour was not as nice visually. A few blond blurps and one 4 second spritzer at the end. Stopped the shot 2 second earlier than (2.2). WOW! The crema was not as thick and persistent but only by a fraction. Taste is just as good!

Conclusion. There is no disputing the fact that the shots are WAY better with grooming. Had my way gone too sloppy or is it that my equipment requires it? I don't know, but I will do the WDT for a little while... This has been a very humbling experience...

That's the way to do it!

A couple of suggestions: Try not tapping. Try not doing your "sucking" pull on the tamper. You may find you get even better results.

I'd also recommend trying to get some really fresh coffee in....

Glad to hear it's all working out.

Cheers

Mike

I'm using a Vivaldi II, and a Super Jolly.

And I'm using Counter Culture beans - 4 to 14 days after roasting, usually.

I posted a page or two back that I did better without the 30lb tamp. Which has been difficult to reproduce, I have been too inconsistent with my weights, even though I do weigh each shot - the urge to not waste coffee when overdosing has been strong Wish I had written down the dosages

I tap on the counter several times to distribute after putting in about 2/3's of the dose, and tap again after the rest of the dose is in. Light nutating tamp.

I've been getting pretty good results no matter which way I do it, sometimes really, really good.

I'm thinking MichealBenis is right, fresher coffee will likely help a lot, and I'm thinking the "sucking" pull can't help.

I figure that the least effort and ritual we can do the better the shot - Plus, from threads I have read - the pros keep it to a minimum. Also, by the nature of production required in a busy cafe the required ritual has got to be at a minimum.

The quick "suction" pull outs are to bring in the grind that is stuck to the side of the basket. I do not do the tamper side knock. My tamper is 0.2 mm smaller than the basket and when you nutate it compresses the grind to the side.

How could it be disruptive?

Also the tapping down is only if I do not groom to settle and redistribute a bit. So, I wont be doing that for a while.

For the coffee, it is surprising how this blend has so much of the attributes that I like. Every so often I get a 250g of fresh roasted from various places but... The journey is just starting.

Whale wrote:How could it be disruptive?

Possibly disturb the puck with vacuum pressure?

I ignore the grounds on the side of the basket. Maybe blow lightly over the puck to blow them out if I see something that has fallen down onto the top of the puck.

I'm still new to this, maybe I ought to be paying attention to the grounds on the side of the basket?

PS, I am using a convex tamper which may work better with the Vivaldi due to the nut hanging down below the screen

As far as I see it, we want an evenly-distributed and compact puck. Anything that disturbs that is not a good idea, since it will probably lead to channeling and an underextracted shot.

So, any upwards "sucking" that one might be able to achieve by withdrawing the tamper fast, or any tapping to dislodge grinds stuck to the side of the basket is, I think, likely to disturb the puck without actually achieving anything positive - even if one does then tamp again. My experience is that the more I fiddle with the puck after one tamp, the more likely I am to ruin things. And I honestly don't think that the odd grind on the side of the basket or falling onto the puck is going to do anything in the grand scheme of things, whereas trying to get rid of it by tapping could I think increase the chances of creating gaps in the puck or between the puck and filter basket, which will result in channeling and under-extraction.

My thinking is that I only need to concern myself with keeping the basket rim clean so that the PF can seal shut, and that just takes a quick wipe.

Leaving the theory aside, this has yielded more consistent extractions for me in practice, which is why I suggested it. That's actually just referring to the tapping - I must confess to never having tried the fast tamper withdrawal..... but it does strike me that it's likely to lead to a less consistent puck, even if one is tamping again afterwards.

As for tamping pressure, I have also got better extractions and consistency by grinding finer and tamping lighter - much lighter. I literally just apply finger pressure now to get a compact, level puck.

I have tried the nutating tamp on Dan's recommendation, but find I get the occasional side channeling as a result. Maybe I am overnutating . But I get on better without it, swiping to level if need be, either with a finger or a saucer or even the tamper, without any pressure and using a sweeping motion. Or if the basket is very full, with a good old Stockfleths. For more about the Stockfleth's and Dan's "Stockfleths for Dummies" which he referred to above, see Stockfleths Move for Dummies [video] You could find this really helps you get excellent results.

I also prefer a heavy tamper. Not because I need the weight on the coffee, but because I find I get better feedback on what I am doing. Likewise I prefer a short handle. I'm just cack-handed I suppose....

I do however think the tamper is probably the most over-rated item of barista equipment. Which hasn't stopped me ordering a beautiful wooden one from Les of Thor Tampers

Cheers

Mike

At the risk of repeating advice that has been given over and over on these boards:

1. It's all about the coffee. Use freshly roasted beans, not vac packed beans roasted many months ago in Italy.
2. Many words have been written about tamping and tampers. Perhaps far too many. IMHO you can get away with using just about any tamper and tamping style. Differences between convex and flat pistons are subtle, and should not make or break your pour. You do not need a piston that is sized to within a micron of the basket diameter. Get a tamper that feels good in your hand, be reasonably consistent in your tamping pressure, make sure the tamp is level, and you'll be fine.
3. I see no benefit from your "vacuum withdrawal" technique. (I won't say it. I won't say it... ) If grinds on the top lip and upper sides of the basket disturb you, brush them lightly with a finger and then gently invert the basket.
4. Downward tapping before tamping is fine, but be aware that this is an extremely effective updosing technique. I would not recommend downward tapping unless you are deliberately updosing, or you have premeasured your dose beforehand. Tapping of any kind after tamping is a no-no.

michaelbenis wrote:As for tamping pressure, I have also got better extractions and consistency by grinding finer and tamping lighter - much lighter. I literally just apply finger pressure now to get a compact, level puck.

I'm trying to get there - just sorting out the variables and making the changes to do it consistently

I have tried the nutating tamp on Dan's recommendation, but find I get the occasional side channeling as a result. Maybe I am overnutating

Maybe others will chime in here - I'm guessing that nutating works better with a convex tamper - not sure.

Also, I got more into a nutating tamp after being advised to do so by a vivaldi II owner - specifically stating that the Vivaldi does better with a nutating tamp.

Fwiw, with the olympia cremina, I'm using a flat tamper - and only do a very mild leveling with my fingers that is similar to a nutation.

SwingT wrote:Maybe others will chime in here - I'm guessing that nutating works better with a convex tamper - not sure.

Very good point. I shall fiddle some more....

Aw, come on, Dan - don't be too hard on us!

I think the ballpark figures on dose variations and taste were pretty helpful.

HB wrote:Sage reminders like yours are welcome, especially when they salvage a discussion that's entered into the Netherworld obsession zone between the improbable and the impossible.

+1

One of the repeated themes on H-B, is where I perceive unnecessary and obsessive rituals and compare them with the techniques of skilled professionals. My comments are dismissed with some variation on the theme of "professionals are just in a hurry, while I can achieve repeatable perfection in my kitchen, if I just add a few more steps."

I really wish more newbies would spend more time in first rate coffee bars or pay for some hands-on training. It would be a big eye-opener.

HB wrote:Sage reminders like yours are welcome, especially when they salvage a discussion that's entered into the Netherworld obsession zone between the improbable and the impossible.

Dunno ... Maybe I am thick but I do not follow nor see what that meant. What is the outlandish claim to which you apply this?

SwingT wrote:Maybe others will chime in here - I'm guessing that nutating works better with a convex tamper - not sure.

I fully support the statement that nutating works better with a convex tamper. I have tried both and feel that it occurs almost on its own with a convex tamper.
I started the nutating years ago. Even before I knew how it was called or even knew the existence of this site. Nutating, to me is a natural way of gently evening out the grinds and ending up in a level surface. I learned more recently that it may help in reducing side channeling...so I did not stop.

RapidCoffee wrote:At the risk of repeating advice that has been given over and over on these boards:

1. It's all about the coffee. Use freshly roasted beans, not vac packed beans roasted many months ago in Italy.
   ...
2. I see no benefit from your "vacuum withdrawal" technique. (I won't say it. I won't say it... ) If grinds on the top lip and upper sides of the basket disturb you, brush them lightly with a finger and then gently invert the basket.
3. Downward tapping before tamping is fine, but be aware that this is an extremely effective updosing technique. I would not recommend downward tapping unless you are deliberately updosing, or you have premeasured your dose beforehand. Tapping of any kind after tamping is a no-no.

Please feel free to repeat, I have not read the entire content of these boards...
I understand that you may not see a benefit to the "suction". I do. But do you see a negative? The question applies to the 3 members than recommended against.
I see the side tapping being done in the large majority of video being posted. I am in full disagreement with it. Both all these people are doing it to get the grind that is stuck to the side of the basket to fall down. I use a light suction.
Anyway unless one is very careful when removing the piston ( I am not saying it! ), then they are doing it. I am not pulling it that fast.
Finally, I do not updose. By taste.

Marshall wrote:+1

One of the repeated themes on H-B, is where I perceive unnecessary and obsessive rituals and compare them with the techniques of skilled professionals. My comments are dismissed with some variation on the theme of "professionals are just in a hurry, while I can achieve repeatable perfection in my kitchen, if I just add a few more steps."

I really wish more newbies would spend more time in first rate coffee bars or pay for some hands-on training. It would be a big eye-opener.

Clearly your position on our obsession on trying to learn from each other is well known. How many time must we repeat it; we are not skilled professional and cannot do what they do...yet! If you can, I am happy for you.

You feel that newbies have to pay and get professional teaching, so that; we do not waste your time? You have paid someone to teach you? I choose to learn on my own with the help of a few friend discussing in a forum!

Finally to you all that advocate the fresh coffee. I have said that I try it every so often, from local roasting places. I am not dissing fresh coffee, actually I like it, but if I like the taste of this Italian package blend better than what ever else I have tasted so far. So be it. I will continue trying new stuff.

Marshall wrote:+1

One of the repeated themes on H-B, is where I perceive unnecessary and obsessive rituals and compare them with the techniques of skilled professionals. My comments are dismissed with some variation on the theme of "professionals are just in a hurry, while I can achieve repeatable perfection in my kitchen, if I just add a few more steps."

I really wish more newbies would spend more time in first rate coffee bars or pay for some hands-on training. It would be a big eye-opener.

Marshall,

I for one have spent enough time in "first rate coffee bars" to know what they do, and have tasted enough of the highly regarded North American blends, both in "first rate coffee bars" and at home to know what I think about that approach to coffee.

Not everyone in the world believes that the path to espresso nirvana is paved with in-your-face blends designed to be updosed, prepared in triple baskets with handstand tamps. From my own travels, especially in Europe, I believe this North American approach to represent a minority view. But I digress.

There are people who like packaged Italian coffees, that are undoubtedly "stale" by our perspective. I'm not one who likes that sort of coffee, but I can understand why some might prefer it. When people like us think about stale old coffee, we think about that greasy black disgusting stuff that is ubiquitous in supermarket bins throughout N. America. Italian blends are (for the most part) more lightly roasted. When one of those "aged" packages is opened you are not greeted by explosive disgustedness, but rather by a bland "balanced" beverage that is largely mono tonal, that tastes like "coffee." I would submit that what appeals to many about this sort of coffee is not what is in it, but what it lacks, the explosive in-your-face tastes and flavors that some here find attractive and which I personally do not.

The problem with "barista training" is that in order to be useful it would need to come from someone who appreciates all the different approaches and who could teach them in a time and cost efficient manner. I can't see any way to do this at reasonable cost. So the other option would be to take a class like I've seen Heather Perry give, which is fairly rigid and dogmatic in its approach. Obviously, Heather knows the many ways to make espresso, but could anyone afford to pay for 2 weeks of her time to teach a real newbie all these things and how to approach these variables? No, of course not. So, with any sort of affordable training one is going to get a fairly dogmatic approach because there simply is not time to do otherwise.

Hell, by the time that you would pay for truly useful professional barista training, your dollars could probably be better spent by simply buying a "Titan-level" grinder, which will greatly minimize the learning curve and which will forgive a lot of grind, dosing, and distribution errors.

What would probably be of more value to readers of this board, would be to try to hook up with other board participants who are already experienced in making espresso, and to spend some time visiting them in their homes seeing how they make espresso on their own equipment. If you could do this with several other people, seeing several approaches, that would be very instructive. This is obviously only going to work in a metropolitan area where you could find a concentration of home baristas, not in the middle of nowhere like where I live.

ken

RapidCoffee wrote:I would not recommend downward tapping unless you are deliberately updosing, or you have premeasured your dose beforehand.

Thank you for that correction.

I was doing that for the sole reason of leveling it in the basket -

Now I need to go back and reread the thread - about dose and tamp without leveling

Whale wrote:I understand that you may not see a benefit to the "suction". I do. But do you see a negative? The question applies to the 3 members than recommended against.

OK, I'll take a stab at this. If your vacuum technique really sucks (oops, I said it), then you run the risk of dislodging the seal between the puck and the sides of the basket. This could cause channeling. Weigh this against the benefits (basically, none) and you may understand why I recommend against it.

Whale wrote:I am not dissing fresh coffee, actually I like it, but if I like the taste of this italien package blend better than what ever else I have tasted so far.

Drink what you like best. De gustibus non est disputandum. I just find it surprising when someone with a passion for superior espresso, as you obviously have, prefers canned Italian blends to fresh specialty microroasted coffee.