RapidCoffee wrote:I tell you three times: I am not lobbying for weighing every dose. But I dislike seeing those who do, being cast as refugees from Planet OCD. Dose matters.

These are my beliefs on the matter as well.

I did a bit of an experiment this morning if only because I have a less then stellar roast of some Moka Kadir Blend that I got a bit too hot and far into the roast and I want to use it up quickly. Its still acceptable but a bit ashy and not as sweet as my usual roasts of this coffee.

I was able to produce some very acceptable shots at 14.5 gm which is my usual range (14.5-15 gm) that I surf for the best results with individual roasts. I also tried ranges up to 17.5 gm where I used the same temperature and volume. Above 16 gm and the results were drinkable but not very good at all with 17 and higher making me want to dump some milk into it.

RapidCoffee wrote:This strikes to the heart of the matter for me. No, we're far beyond discussion of complete meltdowns. No, we're not discussing minutiae. Small changes in dose can have a profound impact on taste in the cup. And yes, there is a simple way to manipulate dose accurately: use a scale.

I tell you three times: I am not lobbying for weighing every dose. But I dislike seeing those who do, being cast as refugees from Planet OCD. Dose matters.

Agree 100%

michaelbenis wrote:Of course dose matters. And hopefully no one is casting anyone as refuges from anywhere.

So, let's get down to the heart of it, having pretty much all agreed that a scale is a very useful marker when setting things up, but not necessarily something that needs to form part of the preparation of every shot.

The bottom line is that everyone who makes espresso regularly at home will develop their own technique, for better or worse. Trying to specify a set of rules or parameters applicable to the whole home espresso making community is basically a waste of time. People will do what they will do, and there is a wide variation in technique(s) that can yield results pleasing to many people.

I think that John (above) has hit the nail on the head, at least for me. I don't updose (or do so hardly ever, anymore) yet I acknowledge that many people do and most of those people are pleased with their results. I DO weigh my ground coffee each time or nearly every time. Many people will like my espresso and many people will not, although I doubt that very many knowledgeable individuals would regard it as improperly made or deficient.

We should not be about defining a set of rules for other people to use in the pursuit of any individual's espresso nirvana. We should also not be labeling fully reasonable practices used by others as being somehow aberrant, lest other people define our own practices as being similarly bizarre.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:The bottom line is that everyone who makes espresso regularly at home will develop their own technique, for better or worse. Trying to specify a set of rules or parameters applicable to the whole home espresso making community is basically a waste of time. People will do what they will do, and there is a wide variation in technique(s) that can yield results pleasing to many people.
...

We should not be about defining a set of rules for other people to use in the pursuit of any individual's espresso nirvana. We should also not be labeling fully reasonable practices used by others as being somehow aberrant, lest other people define our own practices as being similarly bizarre.

ken

Yes you should discuss these things, give comments and call each other names! Where and how do you think most of us start from? From these ever fluctuating "rules" that you guys set and break down.

Some could read this entire thread and learn nothing but If only one learned and understand something new (I did!) from your second guessing and challenging each other than there is value in it.

The more I read the more I learn that I know nothing... But that will not stop me

Quite agree, Ken. I must have expressed myself badly.

I wasn't asking for rules.

I was just interested in comparing experiences. The discussion has at points focused on accuracy of 0.1g. A blind alley in my opinion.

I was asking at what sort levels of variation other people have actually noticed signficant differences in the cup.

John stated he found differences in pour with less than 0.5g, but didn't mention the impact on taste, or what sort of difference he noted.

I stated that I have found 0.5g to be on the cusp - a big generalisation about a small weight, but which I believe could be helpful.

If nothing else, it might just help newbies relax - albeit not too much

Still, these differences aren't necessarily "worse" than the "ideal" and can be much less than those caused by a passing storm.

Which doesn't mean we shouldn't care about consistency or ever weigh.

I quite agree that everyone finds their own technique - and refines and refinds it. Which is the value of these discussions - they can help us develop our senses and sensors.

The mano in the 4 Ms could be the hand of a Jedi....

And I totally agree that we mustn't start underestimating the simple yet essential elements such as dose in our adoration of the latest technological sophistication in water temperature control and pressure profiling etc.

Cheers

Mike

michaelbenis wrote:Of course dose matters. And hopefully no one is casting anyone as refuges from anywhere.

I am. And I have a reason.

We think we're having some kind of private conversation among ourselves, but we're not. For every person who posts on H-B, hundreds (thousands?) will read it over the years. Many of these readers take the most extreme examples of obsessive procedures as the norm or at least as a goal for the serious espresso maker. At this point most will throw up their hands, say "these people are crazy" and stick to their drip brewer.

My underlying theme is to point out that these procedures are unnecessary to full espresso enjoyment and that espresso can be successfully made in the home without turning one's kitchen into a laboratory.

I agree with you completely about overcomplicating, Marshall.

But I'm stil not entirely sure you are casting anyone out.....

Marshall wrote:We think we're having some kind of private conversation among ourselves, but we're not. For every person who posts on H-B, hundreds (thousands?) will read it over the years. Many of these readers take the most extreme examples of obsessive procedures as the norm or at least as a goal for the serious espresso maker. At this point most will throw up their hands, say "these people are crazy" and stick to their drip brewer.

My underlying theme is to point out that these procedures are unnecessary to full espresso enjoyment and that espresso can be successfully made in the home without turning one's kitchen into a laboratory.

Those readers will also regard you as crazy for spending over $5K to make a cup of coffee.

A digital scale is inexpensive, and weighing your dose only takes a few seconds, which hardly qualifies it as one of the "most extreme examples of obsessive procedures". Dosing has been sadly neglected on the coffee boards, and I hope we can continue without further hyperbole.

Marshall wrote:I am. And I have a reason.

We think we're having some kind of private conversation among ourselves, but we're not. For every person who posts on H-B, hundreds (thousands?) will read it over the years. Many of these readers take the most extreme examples of obsessive procedures as the norm or at least as a goal for the serious espresso maker. At this point most will throw up their hands, say "these people are crazy" and stick to their drip brewer.

My underlying theme is to point out that these procedures are unnecessary to full espresso enjoyment and that espresso can be successfully made in the home without turning one's kitchen into a laboratory.

Marshall

If you are trying to address beginners who are reading this and then "throw up their hands, say "these people are crazy" and stick to their drip brewer" then I think you are not doing them any favors by trying to promote methods used by experienced baristas professional or home enthusiasts. As others have already mentioned, digital scales are cheap, ACCURATE and easy to use. Beginners and I consider myself still among them compared with most posting here must develop habits and routines that work before they can even know what might be excess or unnecessary. Your mantra of pretending to be Heather Perry (in pants I'm sure ) is for more experienced espresso enthusiasts who can use their experience to know when to vary dose, temperature, volume, basket or grind.

GC7 wrote:Marshall

If you are trying to address beginners who are reading this and then "throw up their hands, say "these people are crazy" and stick to their drip brewer" then I think you are not doing them any favors by trying to promote methods used by experienced baristas professional or home enthusiasts. As others have already mentioned, digital scales are cheap, ACCURATE and easy to use.

I think digital scales are great for training newbies, for occasionally recalibrating eyeballs, and for those who are curious about a new coffee. I have one myself.

My objection is to claiming that the penalty for failing to weigh and spoon out every shot of espresso (and then stir it with a needle in a yogurt cup) is a lifetime of "sinkshots." I've had too much good espresso in too many places to take this stuff seriously. Some of it was made with very modestly priced equipment.

Marshall

I generally agree with you but when you say some claim the "penalty for failing to weigh and spoon out every shot of espresso (and then stir it with a needle in a yogurt cup) is a lifetime of "sinkshots." I think you have totally made a comic caracature exageration of what this actual discussion has been about. Aren't you the one who has been claiming that those who do use scales, dissecting needles to stir around yogurt cups in baskets are performing "unnecessary vodoo rituals"?

To quote a neighbor of yours in LA "Why can't we all just get along"? I am just trying to take a minute extra time in my home to maximize the quality of my espresso without throwing any sinkshots down the drain.