Doesn't staring at the scale distract you from more important factors that determine the final product quality... like the flow/color... especially if using a bottomless? I definitely feel I can improve some shots that may start to show some flow issues by cutting early -- I'd much rather do that and get a tasty 16g beverage than my target 18g. Perhaps the scale shows this, since if it gushes a bit you will measure the increase of liquid... although it's nice to know that's what happened.

I have a recipe for making pizza dough, I measure the ingredients, however, when adding water, it's not exact... you go by feel on how the dough sticks/looks to get best results.

It seems to me it just depends... some parts of a process are better by feel, others by exact measurement.

Doesn't staring at the scale distract you from more important factors that determine the final product quality... like the flow/color... especially if using a bottomless? I definitely feel I can improve some shots that may start to show some flow issues by cutting early -- I'd much rather do that and get a tasty 16g beverage than my target 18g. Perhaps the scale shows this, since if it gushes a bit you will measure the increase of liquid... although it's nice to know that's what happened.

I highly doubt early blonding or uneven distribution is much of a problem for Dennis. With his experience and equipment, gushers and early blonding are probably not something he deals with often, especially when going for nearly 100% extractions...

The point of the tutorial is to lend insight into a way, not the way, to pull a shot. In this case, I can see where if one were shooting for a specific extraction ratio, not near the limit of blonding, this could be efficient.

~j

So what we really need to do is hot rod an espresso machine with a scale built into the drip tray. With a bit of work you could have the whole tray be tared for your favorite cups. You wouldn't need volumetric dosing; you could have pre-tuned extraction ratios.

As my favorite comic put it: "Baking is science for hungry people." Is espresso a science?

mini wrote:So what we really need to do is hot rod an espresso machine with a scale built into the drip tray.

..or maybe an ExtractMojo

HB wrote:To be filed under Food for Thought...

While some aficionados may feel that precise measurements detract from the "art" of making espresso, it's accepted practice in other culinary endeavors. For example, bakers measure precisely as a matter of course (e.g., searching on baking accuracy of measurements yields many admonishments like "Accuracy of measurement is essential in the bakeshop" and "For baking, accuracy for ingredients is crucial.").

Of course, but few of us bake bread several times a day, every day at home. Baking bread is a big job. Making espresso at home should be much, much easier.

HB wrote:To be filed under Food for Thought...

Indeed, baking is totally unlike cooking . . . in baking, you NEED to be precise with your measurements, or your cake won't rise, your brioche will be heavy, your chocolate chip cookies will be cake-like instead of cookie-like, etc., etc.

Cooking is "a pinch of this" and a "dash of that" -- it's far less precise, and does not need to be . . . an extra ounce or two of wine in the soup, or three extra cloves of garlic won't ruin the dish. But use three "Jumbo" eggs instead of the three "Large" ones the recipe calls for, and that cake is ruined. In other words, you can "adjust to taste" in cooking, but don't try that in baking!

More songs about buildings and food (i.e.: random thoughts) . . .

Bob_McBob wrote:It seems like most people are either in the "measuring equals consistency" or "measuring ruins the enjoyment or art of espresso" camps.

And rarely are great chefs great bakers . . . and rarely are great bakers also great chefs . . . .

Bob_McBob wrote:If weighing a basket ruins your day, then by all means carry on.

Chris, please don't think I'm singling you out, but quite succinctly, you put your finger on what -- for me -- is the issue in this thread.

For me, it's not a matter of the extra time of "weighing a basket" that ruins the day . . . however, I'm more in the "chef" rather than "baker" camp. It's no doubt a part of my background in wine: a wine can get ruined by over-oaking it, but it isn't an issue of having to rack the wine out of the oak barrel today by 5:00 pm or the wine is ruined! It won't be ruined if the wine's not taken out tomorrow either . . . but you do have to get it out.

So for me, weighing the dose, being as precise as Dennis and some others are, is on the one hand, a great learning tool and highly recommended; on the other hand, to do it each and every time one pulls a shot IS a PITA . . . at least for me. This is especially true if I'm preparing multiple drinks for waiting guests/family at home.

Bob_McBob wrote:If you are a company at the forefront of selling a purportedly high-end product, then you are doing your customers a disservice by not investigating ways to improve quality and consistency because it disturbs your "art".

Here, the trade-off in time is even that much more crucial. In the abstract, yes -- a company should be doing everything they can to improve quality and consistency. But the difference between il caffè della pasticceria taking their time and carefully weighing out each and every ingredient not only means a successful tiramisu, but all that happens at 5:00 am behind the closed doors of the kitchen -- not, as would be the case at Luigi's extremely busy caffè della espresso . . . or Starbucks or Intelligentsia, for that matter.

tekomino wrote:If you make good espresso already then by all means don't change. There is no reason to. But if you are looking to be more consistent and step up your craft then this is something you should try.

Doesn't this imply that your allegedly good espresso isn't up to snuff and you need to "step up your craft"?

tekomino wrote:I know at first blush this might look like bit much, perhaps geeky, but really, is asking for lousy 2 measurements too much? In average food recipe you have more measuring than this. And I feel it does not add more time to the routine.

Again, a) it's the difference between baking and cooking; and b) it's not just two measurements . . .

That said, Dennis, I think it's a great tool for beginners -- more critical than most, in fact -- but you don't need to use that click-tamper once you know what you're doing, either . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

mini wrote:So what we really need to do is hot rod an espresso machine with a scale built into the drip tray. With a bit of work you could have the whole tray be tared for your favorite cups. You wouldn't need volumetric dosing; you could have pre-tuned extraction ratios.

It's already on the market for drip: the Marco Uber Boiler http://lamarzoccousa.com/LM%20USA/docs/ ... %20set.pdf.

Marshall wrote:Of course, but few of us bake bread several times a day, every day at home. Baking bread is a big job. Making espresso at home should be much, much easier.

+1 This is a great tool for people getting started in the hobby, and for enthusiasts who (as part of controlling every aspect of espresso brewing) prefer to dose in a consistent (e.g., as close to 0.1 grams) manner. But if using the same basket, same grinder, same dosing technique, and same demitasse cup then muscle and "eye" memory will make this "second nature". Hey, it is a hobby! Many ways to do this. All this talk about bread making is making me hungry

Marshall wrote:It's already on the market for drip: the Marco Uber Boiler http://lamarzoccousa.com/LM%20USA/docs/ ... %20set.pdf.

I don't know whether to be awed or disgusted . . .

Bob_McBob wrote:If you are a company at the forefront of selling a purportedly high-end product, then you are doing your customers a disservice by not investigating ways to improve quality and consistency because it disturbs your "art".

The kinds of companies we are usually talking about here are constantly investigating ways to improve quality and consistency. Some of it is behind the scenes at origin and some of it is in their barista training centers. It's no secret. They blog about their work all the time.

But, they also have a desire to stay in business, which means moving the customer line with reasonable speed. I can assure you that adopting some of the rituals endorsed on H-B, including the one that is the subject of this thread or "weigh each shot" (which Jim likes), would drive espresso and latte customers straight out the door. To be fair to Dennis, I am sure he was not recommending his technique for busy retail shops.

Interestingly, some shops, like Intelligentsia, have adopted by-the-cup pre-weighing for their new brew bars. They do this in bulk in the morning before the shop opens and keep stacks of single-cup bean doses ready to toss into the shop grinders. See http://vimeo.com/11181154 at 0:39.