Hello,

I've seen a lot of posts on descaling single boiler dual purpose machines as well as HX machines.

From what i understand, descaling the steam boiler on a double boiler machine would pose the same challenge as the one on a HX right? Since descaling the machine seems like an obvious maintenance task for keeping it running a long time, why don't the manufacturers include simple provisions for overfilling the boilers for cleaning purposes? I mean, these machines are built like tanks to last but do not include a basic functionality for keeping them scale free... It looks like you always need to get into them and start disconnecting stuff. Companies usually go out of their way in the design to keep us out of their machines... Seems sort of odd.

This is just one more parameter i'm looking at for choosing between a HX or double boiler (Andreja Premium vs Brewtus III). Thanks for the info.

If you are choosing the Brewtus III-V that has a tank, you would likely have to remove the wire harness for the water level probe to get the steam boiler to fill to the top when descaling. Choosing a plumb-in model actually makes the process less involved as long as you have easy access to the top of the boiler and the drain plug on the bottom. I can perform the task much faster on machines that fit that scenario, since I don't have to use the pump. You wouldn't need to remove the wire for the water level probe because you'd be removing the whole probe (or vacuum breaker) to pour in your descale solution. As an added bonus, you can descale your vacuum breaker in the process.

While I agree that I wish more of these machines corrected for all of the little annoyances, such as descaling a HX (rarely an enjoyable task) or DB, from a manufacturing standpoint, there are problems with tying up all those loose ends. First of all, it's important to consider that adding a water tank to machines of this caliber is, for the most part, an afterthought. It is a workaround for the budding home enthusiast market as well as mobile coffee cart or catering services (though many still use plumbed-in equipment). The primary focus of commercial espresso machine manufacturers has traditionally been the food service establishment, and the preventative maintenance (PM) schedule on a machine at many restaurants is typically non-existent.

Also, since commercial espresso manufacturers mandate proper installation guidelines (regardless of whether they are followed) including water quality, it's not high on their design teams' priority lists to ensure that frequent descaling is made more user-friendly. Some companies have made it easy on techs and have for years, though usually on 4 liter and larger HX boilers (compact ones at or less than 2 liters tend to be annoying). Others have made attempts that seem like a good idea, such as having a drain cock at the end of a conveniently located narrow pipe, but ultimately turn out to be a huge hassle if proper water quality is not used. (Imagine 8 inches of quarter-inch copper pipe filled with scale.)

In the end, if a convenient maintenance feature is not already incorporated into the design, it's not likely to be added any time soon. Companies focus on features that they can market to the end user (think commercial here) rather than the tech. An establishment that actually has a service contract that covers PMs could care less how annoying it is for the tech to do the work. As you may have noticed, however, with the growing home enthusiast market in the US, issues specific to machines that have large prosumer followings are being addressed. The squeaky wheel still gets the grease, but it takes a pretty loud squeak for it to be heard all the way across the Atlantic.

spiffdude wrote:This is just one more parameter i'm looking at for choosing between a HX or double boiler (Andreja Premium vs Brewtus III). Thanks for the info.

Descaling is a PITA on either HX or DB prosumer machines. It's swings and roundabouts, taking the about same time on both.

It's relatively trivial to add an NC momentary open switch in the fill sensor line to overfill the steam boiler.

Last year I had the pleasure of descaling my Linea steam boiler and here's what I found to be easiest (thanx to Barry Jarrett). I removed the vacuum breaker and shoved a silicone rubber funnel in the hole. I opened the steam wand so the boiler would vent, and filled the boiler up to near the top with pre-mixed solution of scalekleen, turned the machine on, and got the solution good and hot. I let it sit for a few hours and drained it out the sight glass drain (for the life of me I don't understand why Linea 2-group steam boilers don't have a damn drain valve. 3 and 4 group Lineas have 'em). I repeated this until the boiler was clean, then filled and drained the boiler several times with clean water. Then I vowed to bleed a pint or so of hot water from the boiler every day so that the hardness wouldn't build up within the boiler water to levels that cause scaling.

Actually the process wasn't too bad, compared to alternative approaches i can think of.

-Greg

spiffdude wrote:Hello,

I've seen a lot of posts on descaling single boiler dual purpose machines as well as HX machines.

From what i understand, descaling the steam boiler on a double boiler machine would pose the same challenge as the one on a HX right? Since descaling the machine seems like an obvious maintenance task for keeping it running a long time, why don't the manufacturers include simple provisions for overfilling the boilers for cleaning purposes? I mean, these machines are built like tanks to last but do not include a basic functionality for keeping them scale free... It looks like you always need to get into them and start disconnecting stuff. Companies usually go out of their way in the design to keep us out of their machines... Seems sort of odd.

This is just one more parameter i'm looking at for choosing between a HX or double boiler (Andreja Premium vs Brewtus III). Thanks for the info.

I had indeed read somewhere about opening up the boiler and using a tube to fill\empty it with solution. I think you can usually do this by removing the water level probe on the top right?

Sounds simple enough but I just assumed this was more risky (leaks, cross threading, etc) than just pulling the wire out of the prove and using the pump.

Either way, i understand that you need to get inside the machine and undo stuff. It's not that i mind, i'm used to working on my toys to make sure i can keep enjoying them.

Unless you regularly flush the boiler water with soft (non-scaling) water? I'm thinking this is probably the simplest solution if it can really get you out of descaling at all.

I did read the insanely long water FAQ, thanks for the headache Jim! I have an engineering degree, read it in one shot and got up to get a couple of Advil. Now that i've looked at it again, and with this thread's input, i think i have things straight.

Good point about these machines being aimed first and foremost at the commercial market. I had kinda forgotten about that. So many people here have prosumer machines that i lose sight that most homes have a regular single boiler / dual purpose machine. In fact, that's what i have too right now!

Well, one step closer to my purchase, thanks again to all for sharing your knowledge

Since I never read about descaling the brew boiler, am I to assume that it isn't required?