Scotto wrote:Well, an hour on the phone with WLL and I am not too happy. They flatly refused to replace the machine or refund my money, since I am two weeks outside the 30 day "buyers remorse" program. They were willing to repair it, which I am not sure I want to do, since I am out the shipping costs plus I am without a grinder. Looks like I learned a painful $300 lesson....

If the best you can do is get it repaired then do so. They have a good repair department and once it's fixed it will be a great grinder. I really liked my Rocky grinder when I had it.

After the repair you could always sell it if you wanted something different and at least get some of the money back.

Scotto wrote:Well, an hour on the phone with WLL and I am not too happy. They flatly refused to replace the machine or refund my money, since I am two weeks outside the 30 day "buyers remorse" program. They were willing to repair it, which I am not sure I want to do, since I am out the shipping costs plus I am without a grinder. Looks like I learned a painful $300 lesson....

A problem without a hoped for resolution is always an unhappy circumstance; I think we've all been there. It does seem that WLL is living up to their stated policies and while they won't replace the machine or refund your money because you are beyond that window of opportunity they will repair the grinder which is what the warranty is for. Like anything purchased from afar; you must bear the burden of getting the defective item to the warranty facility (this is so even with my car which wasn't purchased far away). Our personal expectations of perfection set us up for disappointment when perfection isn't achieved and it's a pretty elusive thing; particularly with a mechanical device. It's never fun when it happens but if the vendor is willing to repair the problem there's not a lot more than you can ask of them (except out of frustration). Remember, they didn't manufacture the item, they're just a small independent firm that sells them and their expectation, like yours, is that the unit was properly manufactured and will work as advertised. When it doesn't and they step up to the plate and accept responsibility to repair a defective item they're doing exactly what they said they would.

It isn't their fault in the least that you didn't take advantage of the period of time when you could have returned the machine for a refund or replacement. You might not have known that you should have taken that course of action but that does not place them "at fault". What I find interesting is that your first post said you bought the Rocky 3 months ago, WLL have a 30-day Buyer's Remorse policy, and your last post says they wouldn't refund or replace since you were two weeks beyond your 30-day return period.

Your comment about a $300 lesson seems to implicate either the Rocky grinder or the vendor; neither of which seems to be the case here since you didn't act to replace the grinder or ask for a refund within the Buyer's Remorse period and the vendor has not refused to live up to their warranty obligations. As for the Rocky, there are just way too many out there being used with satisfaction to condemn the product on the whole (while it's certainly possible that you got a mis-manufactured unit).

I've had a Rocky grinder for the last 4 years and it's turned out in excess of 4,000 double shots. Many (many) others use Rocky grinders much to their satisfaction so there's overwhelming evidence there that once repaired your Rocky would perform as well. Given that the shipping cost would have been the same as you'll incur now to have returned the machine for a refund (you pay to get it back to them and they subtract their cost of shipping to get it to you at the time of purchase) it would seem that pursuing repair will be the best course of action and should result in your having a grinder that works. While it's hardly an ideal situation it doesn't seem that it's anywhere close to a $300 lesson.

I'm posting this to balance the scales so to speak; it is not a personal assault on Scotto. I wear both hats; I'm a small business owner and a consumer. I just purchased a $1400 espresso machine that didn't work properly and obviously I wasn't happy (who would be?) but the vendor stepped up and did their part, helped diagnose the problem, got the parts shipped out, and after a couple of tries (one problem disguised another) they had me up and running and I'm now enjoying espresso from my new machine...I just couldn't ask for more (other than not to have the problem in the first place but that's a futile action). I sell multi-thousand dollar products from one of the most respected manufacturers in the world...I still employ mechanics to deal with warranty issues so I see it from that side too.

Best wishes for a satisfactory resolution.

To answer the time question, I have bought lots of coffee stuff over the past few months, so my mind isn't too clear on the exact dates when I got what item. When I pulled up my account info, it seems that Rocky is even newer than I remembered, since he arrived March 1 of this year. WLL has a policy and they are sticking to it; that is certainly their prerogative. As a businessman myself, my standards of customer service are quite a bit different, and hence my personal frustration. That is on me, not them. Enough said.

lblampman wrote:It isn't their fault in the least that you didn't take advantage of the period of time when you could have returned the machine for a refund or replacement. You might not have known that you should have taken that course of action but that does not place them "at fault". What I find interesting is that your first post said you bought the Rocky 3 months ago, WLL have a 30-day Buyer's Remorse policy, and your last post says they wouldn't refund or replace since you were two weeks beyond your 30-day return period.

I'd agree except for:

I actually spoke with the customer service people a couple of times in the first month, complaining about Rocky. They assured me that nothing was wrong with it, that it was either Silvia being finicky or my lousy technique. Being somewhat new at this, I took their advice.

An espresso newbie would likely have no way of knowing their tech rep was basically blowing them off rather than working with them to solve a real problem. Personally if I had any form of documenation of those discussions, even just the tech reps name, I'd be contacting my credit card company.

Anyway, customer service aside, tonight I convinced myself that the problem is that the burrs aren't parallel. Here is my evidence:

(1) The zero I find by turning the hopper with the machine off is about 6 clicks different than what I find with the machine running.

(2) The sound the burrs make when first touching is very clearly the sound of one edge touching first - a ch-ch-ch metallic sound very different from what I would expect two parallel surfaces to make.

(3) I can hold the hopper firmly to one side and make the burr touching sound go away.

Such is life, I suppose. I guess I'll have to figure out how to box up this beast and send it in for repair. That Mazzer is sounding better and better, though...

I figured I would come back and wrap up this story. Thanks to the HB 2nd birthday sale, I got a great deal on a Mazzer Mini from 1st Line. Order placed Friday, arrived today (Monday) The first shots, without any adjustment, blew the doors off the best I could get with Rocky. The coffee even feels different when dosing and tamping. I am a very pleased camper, and now I can continue my quest with one more variable under my control. Rocky will get fixed up and either be relegated to drip/FP or find another home.

Thanks for the follow-up, I love a happy ending.

Scotto wrote:I figured I would come back and wrap up this story. Thanks to the HB 2nd birthday sale, I got a great deal on a Mazzer Mini from 1st Line. Order placed Friday, arrived today (Monday) The first shots, without any adjustment, blew the doors off the best I could get with Rocky. The coffee even feels different when dosing and tamping. I am a very pleased camper, and now I can continue my quest with one more variable under my control. Rocky will get fixed up and either be relegated to drip/FP or find another home.

Excellent! That's exactly what I felt when going from Rock to my Mazzer Super Jolly. Yeah it's that good!

Threads like this do my upgradeitis no good at all.

I'm curious, what is it about the difference in the coffee grounds from rocky and a mazzer (or better) that confers such a dramatic improvement in taste - is it grind-to-grind consistency, or the shape of the grinds...? I thought (within reason) that there had to be a range of particle size to actually allow for a decent packing and extraction of the coffee, the whole basket balls and tennis balls in a swimming pool analogy.

DC wrote:Threads like this do my upgradeitis no good at all.

I'm curious, what is it about the difference in the coffee grounds from rocky and a mazzer (or better) that confers such a dramatic improvement in taste - is it grind-to-grind consistency, or the shape of the grinds...? I thought (within reason) that there had to be a range of particle size to actually allow for a decent packing and extraction of the coffee, the whole basket balls and tennis balls in a swimming pool analogy.

Been using a Rocky for 'bout 5 years and got a SJ year or so ago. Have also hosted a number of Gatherings and Jams with Mazzer Minis, SJs and Majors attending. IMO if both have new sharp burrs and if good distribution technique used it won't make a dramtic difference, if any perceived in the cup at all. Based on my comparing Rocky & SJ ground shots both with brand new burrs. As I've said numerous times IMO with Rocky to keep grind quality good requires replacing the burrs every 75# or so not 200# as I sometimes hear as the mfg suggested burr life. Obviously Mazzer's much better for fine tuning shot grind degree.