Happy holidays all,

I'm pulling pretty good shots and at least I think I'm steaming some very good microfoam. I was wondering if cup shape had anything to do with my failed attempts at making pretty cappucini.

Rather than a bowl shape at the bottom, the coffee mugs and short cups I have are fairly cylindrical in shape, so a very flat bottom and sharply angled sides.

I've tried tipping the cup over slightly when pouring, pouring gently, pouring aggressively, but my espresso and milk end up always mixing together and all I end up with is a pour where a consistently colored mixture rises as I pour, and then I finish with a dollop of the end-pour foam on top.

I'm pretty sure I'm making good foam, however, since it's a very tight, velvety foam that pours but still holds up very well.

The drinks taste great, so this is really a nitpicky post. My shots' crema mixes with the foam and actually creates a very smooth, tight layer on top of the cup after it has sat awhile. Even when I drink it my lip cleaves a hole out of the foam and it's a quite pleasing texture.

But it does not look so great on top.

Might it be the consistency of the espresso (too liquidy)?

I watched a talented barista pour microfoam into a paper cup, using soymilk no less!

I use the 6 ounce traditional shaped cappuccino cups by ACF. Wide mouthed and short stature does seem to make things easier for us mere mortals..

unclefreizo wrote:Might it be the consistency of the espresso (too liquidy)?

More likely the consistency of the microfoam. FWIW, I find latte art quite difficult. It took me a long time to get past the internal organs stage of latte art. "Um, yeah, well, that's a rendition of your small intestine."

In my opinion, cup shape is the "best kept secret" of latte art. Sure, a pro can pour a Rosetta in a thimble, but for someone starting out, the big, round cup shapes make it SO much easier.

Try the Latte cups from 49th Parallel Roasters. They are the easiest I've found so far. They even have a 50ml marker on the inside so you know how much espresso to pour.

RapidCoffee wrote:More likely the consistency of the microfoam. FWIW, I find latte art quite difficult. It took me a long time to get past the internal organs stage of latte art. "Um, yeah, well, that's a rendition of your small intestine."

Yes, I can pour a mean pancreas, and my spleen ain't bad either!!

Reminds me of another thread...

Psyd wrote:In pouring the 'Post-Dinner Fish' the technique requires that the foam be a bit fluffier than usual. Start an aggressive pour, from the near side of the cup to the far, and, with a very quick waggy motion, set the 'bones' of the fish on the return. Make sure that the swipe (the 'spine') is a bit off center to give it the proper 'belly/top-fin' ratio.


From Latte Art Challenge[d]

Back to the original question, the cup shape helps, but technique is king. Be certain you've mixed the foam well; even cottonball foam is salvageable with enough swirling. From the same thread:

HB wrote:

Let me begin with my excuses. Although I regularly drank cappuccinos for years, nowadays I prepare them only a few times a month. If I ever had latte art skills, they could only be politely described as "rusty." The video production steps also caused delays that allowed the crema to fade and the steamed milk to start cotton balling. Next time I'll have the video already going instead of fiddling with on/off switches and the camera's capture modes while the espresso sits.

Technical commentary: For a latte, too much air was injected, though it was about right for a cappuccino. I used my largest cup (12 ounces), which drew out the espresso to a thin layer, increasing the speed with which the crema dissipated. The polishing technique seen in the first part of the video eliminated the "cotton ball" and elicited a nice paint-like texture from the milk. Pouring began high, though not aggressively enough, causing an initial splash of white across what little crema remained. I should have lowered the pitcher nearer the surface and the rocking motion was too late and not quite enough.

BTW, you can pick up cups on the cheap on eBay. Search for rego cups or buffalo china cups. Be careful of shipping costs though, you could end up with a $15 diner cup.

I have some ACF "bowl shaped" 5.5oz Capp cups that are almost like cheating.
They have a highly polished interior, and no flat spot at the bottom.

I started latte art years ago, and I can comfortably pour something reasonable in almost any cup shape; however, it was the 6oz (I think) Intelligentsia d'Ancap cup that really honed my skills. The ACF cups are very similar in shape and also work very well.

I still have a hard time pulling off decent art on a macchiato though.

I've tried tipping the cup over slightly when pouring, pouring gently, pouring aggressively, but my espresso and milk end up always mixing together and all I end up with is a pour where a consistently colored mixture rises as I pour, and then I finish with a dollop of the end-pour foam on top.

Like others have said, it sounds like your technique is a little off. You shouldn't be getting the dollop of end-pour foam at all. Either you're stretching too aggressively at the beginning and creating foam that can't be incorporated into the milk, or you're not getting a proper whirlpool/swirl action in the pitcher after stretching.

I would stretch less aggressively but perhaps extend your stretching time. You should get very minimal bubbles, and then work to really incorporate that foam into the milk. Swirling the pitcher after you're done helps for some stubborn small bubbles, but if you stretched too much in the beginning there is little you can do, imo.

ChadTheNomad wrote:Swirling the pitcher after you're done helps for some stubborn small bubbles, but if you stretched too much in the beginning there is little you can do, imo.

When pressed for time, I cheat by pouring off the airy top and remixing. Some baristas in competition use a second pitcher to control the amount of foam poured into each cup. I haven't tried that at home...

I think the shallow bowl shaped cups make it much easier. The large diameter, shallow depth allows you to get the pitcher close to the surface of the drink quicker before you start your swing. Foam consistency is the real key. I find that if I stop frothing and stretching 5-10 seconds sooner than I normally would I get more flowing foam but a cooler drink. Then there are those uber baristas that could pour a Rosetta in a trash can. I am happy for a dozen leaves and a straight line but I don't drink a lot of milk based drinks.

If, upon pouring, you see that the mass of the milk is getting instantly mixed with the mass of the coffee, to produce a liquid that is uniform in colour, and if this only changes (or doesn't change at all) as you continue pouring to the middle point of the cup (or later), where you suddently are able to "make the art happen", then what this mean is that you may be steaming well, but the steaming is not thorough (i.e. not all the mass of the milk is being steamed equally, or not steamed at all).

Note that the milk can still get mixed instantly with the coffee but still be steamed, that is, but still be qualitatively different from "hot liquid milk". This happens when the milk is under-stretched (i.e. too thin).

Hi guys,

normally latte art problems are caused by incorrect milk consistency, either too watery or too thick to pour. If you can froth well you can experiment with pouring latte art at different stages after the milk is done, for example straight after frothing, after 1min, 2min and so on. Just remember to always spin the milk in the jug before pouring. I know that some people say that tulip shaped cups are hard to work with, but to me they pretty much (if not easier!) the same as bowl shaped ones (it's easier to pour the milk under the crema as the cup is slimmer near the bottom).

Oh and remember you can pour good latte art even when the milk is less foamed, so you don't necessarily need a thick, yoghurt-like consistency every time.

Have a look at this clip I made recently, maybe it will help a bit (you can see me 'pushing' the milk into the cup at the last stage of the pour, before doing the rosetta):



Regards,
dsc.

Very nice pour/rosetta, Tom. I can only hope to achieve that someday. Such smooth work!

Amazing how long it can take to learn and perfect this stuff.

Indeed... Especially if you want to perfect that stuff on a tool that is as difficult as the La Pavoni Professional

You are right about that, Orwa...but I have been improving!.....It has just been taking me nearly a year...well...I started out just using chocolate syrup designs because I was way over frothing.

I am sure you have, myself it only took me 15 months, but frothing on that thing is "way too impossible" .

I still say it isn't impossible. At first I thought it was, but once I got my technique down I realized that was the problem. The single hole tip I got from the guy in Brooklyn, NY had too big a hole so it frothed way too fast (for me)...and only produce little bubbles or thick dry stuff. I do fine with the one hole plugged and I do get microfoamed milk. You need to get the swirling motion down so that any larger bubbles disappear into the whirlpool.

I usually use the ACF 6oz bowl shaped cup for capps. I just got a pair of Terra Keramik cups for Christmas. Those being tulip shaped 5 oz cups have a smaller surface area for latte art. I feel a bit apprehensive using those for daily use because they seem less stable under the portafilter of the La Pavoni. The La Pavoni tends to lift up a bit when I pull some shots and those cups are too expensive to risk. At 120#'s, it takes all I have to pull some shots.

orwa wrote:Indeed... Especially if you want to perfect that stuff on a tool that is as difficult as the La Pavoni Professional

You can do it; I used one for quite some time. It is actually a rather good steamer. Some of the machines have the steam wand at a relatively long angle, say 45 degrees in relation to the base. If you loosen the nut that hold the wand onto the valve, you can position the wand at a steeper angle, say 60 degrees. That will put the tip holes at more of a downward position and make frothing easier but you will not have a lot of clearance between the pitcher and boiler so watch your hands. That third hole in the steam tip (the one pointing toward you) was always my demon. Because of the angle of the wand, that hole was venting much more horizontal then the rest and had a tendency to break the surface and blast big bubbles into my milk, until I adjusted the wand.

I also froth with the wand brought more up/forward to nearly the full angle, definitely not kept straight down.

HB wrote:Reminds me of another thread...

Psyd wrote:
In pouring the 'Post-Dinner Fish' the technique requires that the foam be a bit fluffier than usual. Start an aggressive pour, from the near side of the cup to the far, and, with a very quick waggy motion, set the 'bones' of the fish on the return. Make sure that the swipe (the 'spine') is a bit off center to give it the proper 'belly/top-fin' ratio.

Oh no! You HAD to post that?!

Although I'd say that my "one take pours" are far better than they were at that time I am the opposite of everyone else on cup shape I think... or maybe it's just these particular cups. I can never seem to get good pours with my 6oz bowl-shaped cups. I get much better pours on my 4.5oz cups that have a more dramatic angle from side to bottom. Because of the shorter cup though I usually run out of room before I can finish a rosetta so I end up pouring a heart instead.

brad