That is, potentially, a sacrilegious statement for some but, in the ever-evolving world of espresso trends and opinions, it could be an interesting idea to test out.

http://www.jimseven.com/2009/07/06/video-1-crema/

http://coffeecollective.blogspot.com/20 ... crema.html

In general terms I'm with James on this one. I've never been a fan of crema on my espresso and still prefer a low brew pressure that minimizes crema and (to me) offers a more subtle balanced shot.

But I'm curious as to what coffee's and/or roasts this mostly applies too? Is this a universal thing?

Certainly more testing is needed and I'm curious if anyone else has tried this yet? After all we do remove 'bloom' from the press...

The claim that "espresso is rubbish" is an oversimplification based probably on a narrow set of espresso brew parameters. If you said "Espresso is sometimes rubbish" I could agree. Though mine is not.

The crema produced on domestic spring levers operating at ~6 bars of brew pressure is syrupy and viscous, compared to the more mousse-like crema of machines that brew at 9 bars or higher.

Flecked crema isn't always a sign of good-tasting espresso. Often such pretty crema is an indication of too high a brew temperature.

When the espresso is not brewed at temperatures that are too hot, I find the crema adds no unwelcome tastes. Sometimes I drink the (layered) espresso though the crema, as one drinks a lager through the head. Sometimes I stir with a spoon and create a homogeneous blend.

When I see fizzy bubbles in the crema in espresso-porn videos, I think the coffee must not have rested enough.

Wow. I never thought of skimming the Crema off. Gotta give it a try, I guess.

As much as I love tipping sacred cows, I think skimming off the crema, as if it were the foam left after breaking the crust when cupping, may be going in the wrong direction.

So here are my two questions to James and the Coffee Collective:

How did the coffee used for espresso in the experiment taste as a regular brew?
When a coffee tastes better as espresso than brewed; is it still improved by skimming the crema?

My point is obvious. In our rush to try coffees never before used in espresso, we occasionally end up pulling decent shots with coffees that taste flat out spectacular when brewed. If skimming the crema on these improves them to the level of their brewed counterparts, more power to you. If it improves them, but not as much, you are still not putting that coffee to its best use.

I have a couple of interesting test cases on hand:
-- the Fraijanes Agua Tibia which Sweet Maria is selling. In the cup, it's a perfectly good 87ish, clean washed central. But as an espresso, it very unexpectedly turns into a low 90s chocolate-cherry bomb. So my feel is that this coffee is pretty much in line with the SO discoveries being sold by the best roasters.
-- the Yemen Anesi sold earlier this year by the Green Coffee Coop. Unlike many Yemens, this brews to a lovely, exceptionally clean, strawberry-wine cup, scoring in the low to mid 90s, when done as a light cupping roast. As a light-medium roast espresso, it's temperamental. The best shots are perfect little Belgian chocolate-strawberry truffles; the worst shots are either dust and leather, or sour. Like all Yemens, it has the red, congealed super-crema that makes even Robusta's look sick.

Lay your bets; report tomorrow.

I tasted some Coffee Collective espresso recently at an espresso tasting at the Intelligentsia tasting lab in New York City. The beans had been hand carried back from Scandinavia. It was by far the best of the espresso blends I tasted that day. Maybe the best ever.

Does anyone know how to order Coffee Collective beans?
I have looked at their web site, http://www.coffeecollective.dk/coffees.htm but don't see any way to order the beans. Does anyone import them into the United States?

I like the taste of crema. But, the fact that the very excellent Coffee Collective is suggesting that skimming crema improves the taste of espresso is very intriguing.

Its tough to say one way or the other on this, because I dont want to say, "yeah, I agree" and look like im running the catch the bandwagon, but I also dont want to disagree just to disagree.

But I will say this...

Ive never been a fan of shots that have a copious amount of crema... those pretty pictures of shots that are 100% crema.. not really want Im after. I do agree with James about being more interested in balance then a "journey" of the cup, however. Over time, I have adjusted my brew pressure to the point where the crema to coffee ratio is where I like it.. Crema about 20-25% of the cup.

And Crema, mottling, flecks.. Doesnt mean you pulled a good shot at all. Some of my best shots Ive ever pulled had waning crema, not even able to cover the whole top of the cup. Granted these were washed centrals and africans, but hey.. Its the espresso Im after, not the crema.

Also.. Bitterness is NOT a bad thing. Lots of bitterness is not enjoyable, but bitterness, in the right amount, can do wonders for lots of things. The trend in America toward bitterness is that if its bitter, its bad. Not true in my book. Anyone who has worked as a bartender(or attends bars a lot ) will tell you, "Bitters" are often added to a drink, and without it, some drinks would not be nearly as good.

timo888 wrote:The claim that "espresso is rubbish"

The OP actually talked about "crema" being rubbish. I'm glad for the tip to stir espresso. I've always assumed that the spoon that i'm given when ordering an espresso was to stir in sugar and so I've always put the spoon back on the counter before taking the cup. I will try stirring, at least, if not stripping crema.

I've always felt stirring is sufficient. No need to skim crema.

So if no crema is a good thing, and aging improves the taste, does this imply if I let my beans de-gas for a few months in an nitrogen rich (oxygen-free) environment, I'll have the perfect espresso?

Have any of you actually tried this (ie pulling a shot "standard" and tasting it, then pulling a shot, skimming it and tasting it -- and then comparing the two)?

Or is everyone just talking out of their a**es?

Time for a new signature.........

I found it lacked balance since some bitterness was removed.

Also, I sometimes just prefer to taste the layers. Don't forget, it's also about mouthfeel.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really get this "no crema" thing. The last few sips always have no crema so what's new here?

malachi wrote:Have any of you actually tried this (ie pulling a shot "standard" and tasting it, then pulling a shot, skimming it and tasting it -- and then comparing the two)?

Or is everyone just talking out of their a**es?

Thank you, saves me the trouble posting the same thing.

I've tried three doubles today split into two singles, one skimmed, one regular. This isn't a gimme one way or the other, so I'll need to run more shots.

The shots that I have seen that have huge amounts of crema tend either to have been pulled from coffee that is "too fresh," i.e. not sufficiently outgassed, or to have been pulled using "designer water," such as Cirqua promotes, or due to both causes simultaneously.

Designer water, either made from hard water with an RO system then adding back in calcite to about 3 grains of hardness (or made from very soft tap water such as in the Pacific NW, with Calcite added) tends to produce copious crema. Judging by the popularity of this approach in the marquee cafes, there are people who find this an attractive attribute; I'm not one of them, however.

Assuming that you are not dealing with one of the two above situations, then I would defer to what Jim has said about coffees that might not be suitable for use as SO espressos, being used in this way and then finding out that if you skim off the crema the result is "better."

My main point is that the water used to make the espresso is a huge confounding variable in any discussion of this topic.

ken

malachi wrote:Have any of you actually tried this (ie pulling a shot "standard" and tasting it, then pulling a shot, skimming it and tasting it -- and then comparing the two)?

Or is everyone just talking out of their a**es?

I (sort of) asked the same thing (albeit a little less harshly ) in my original post. Interestingly enough Mark Prince has done some experimentation and offers some insights in a parallel discussion on CG (if anyone is interested).

I gave it a try this afternoon with the TNT blend at Orsir. I ordered a double espresso and asked them to let it split into two cups. I tasted the crema on one, then scooped off the rest of the crema. I left the crema on the other one. I then mixed both of them. I tasted the one with the crema scooped off first, then I tasted the one with the crema.

1. Crema is bitter.
2. I liked the one with the crema scooped off better.
3. Crema is not officially "rubbish" as there are probably a good number of people who like the flavor it adds.
4. It's definitely worth it for people to give this a try.
5. Thanks to James and the Coffee Collective for bringing this up in the first place.
6. No comments on mixing. I'll have to try it again with one mixed and one not mixed.

Every now and then one of these exercises is elemental stupidity pops up. Crema is a fundamental, distinct and necessary feature of espresso coffee, and until someone with a lot more chops than Illy & Viani comes along and writes their own book, complete with the decades of research to back it up, I'll continue to believe just that.

Espresso with the crema skimmed off tastes different to espresso with the crema on? Well Duh! You've just removed the emulsified oil soluble flavour components from your espresso. What's left is basically simpler, sweeter, blander and lacking in body. If you've grown up in a culture where sugar is 50% of your diet, it might even taste "better" ... to you. Some people like cold filtered coffee extract, go figure.

Effectively you're drinking just a fraction of the overall extraction, though. A bit like tasting just the centre portion of the shot after the ol' tripart separation test or a run through the Schecter EvaluSpromatic. You get some of what the coffee has to offer, but you certainly miss a lot. It is ALWAYS instructive to first just cup a coffee and then taste it as it is brewed by various methods. Insights in to the way the extraction method can emphasize or suppress elements of the overall flavour can be enlightening.


Alan

I'm pretty much with Alan on this.

It's Homer Simpson reinventing Fred Flintstone's wheel.

How crema tastes depends on lots of different things.

I tend to like the taste of crema.

Sometimes I stir the espresso to bring the layers together. Sometimes I prefer the journey down through the cup. Sometimes I stir just the top parts, but leave the bottom for a nice tart finish. Sometimes I can't stop myself licking off the crema.

What I do will depend on the bean and machine I'm using. And my mood.

This is horses for courses not a new religion.

Just want to weigh in on a few things here, because I am greatly enjoying this discussion. The point of the video was to generate it, as well as to get folks to try an interesting exercise.

I think the fact that crema tends to have quite a lot of suspended material in it strongly influences my perception and enjoyment of it (especially on its own). By suspended material I mean tiny pieces of coffee that we enjoy (aesthetically) as tiger flecking.

Crema is a result of CO2 leaving water, that became supersaturated with the gas under pressure. It is not (as far as I can find in genuine research) the place to find the emulsified oil in an espresso. There is a little bit there, only because the foam is the liquid coffee wrapped around a bubble. The vast percentage of the oil is where the vast percentage of the beverage is: under the crema. The foaming happens due to a melanoidin acting as a foaming agent (illy's research, kindly sent to me by Marino Petracco). The emulsified oil fraction actually inhibits crema formation - one of the reasons robusta produces more stable crema is that it usually contains only 50% of the lipids of arabica.

It would make sense that stirring the crema in would increase the mouthfeel - due to an increase in suspended material in the drink. The actual flavour of the crema (mouthfeel, and taste aside) is pretty much correlated to the shot below.

I suspect that the grinder will have a large impact on how the crema alone tastes - influencing the size and quantity of fines that may be suspended there. I am aware much of the above (on the suspended materials front) is conjecture, and I hope worthy of further discussion.

On a final note - the coffee I was using was pretty lightly roasted. I shall brew up a press of it now - it is very hard to communicate roast degree online.

OK, I have refrained from commenting this morning until I had a chance to "perform" the experiment. (Lord knows, I don't want to be talking out of the wrong orifice (though, technically, aren't I typing?).

As many of you know, I spent a lifetime in the wine trade, so I attempted to conduct the experiment much like a wine tasting, albeit not blind. (I am alone at home, at the moment, my wife having left for work; I may have to repeat the exercise when she returns, have her remove the crema and taste the two samples with eyes closed/blindfolded and in a random order.)

Using Espresso Vivace Dolce, I prepared a double, split into two cups. As with James' video, I skimmed as much of the crema as I reasonably could in three "swipes" with a demitasse spoon from Cup A, and took a small sip, followed by the rest of the shot. Then, with Cup B, I did not stir, but took a small sip, followed by the rest of the cup.

To my palate, Cup A tasted much more like a great sip or two from a press pot, and not like an espresso. Yes, it does lose some body; yes it is lighter and a bit sweeter on the palate. But it also misses something on the mid-palate and has a more delicate, cleaner finish. Cup B, on the other hand, was a classic, rich, full-bodied espresso -- not overly bitter, yet there is a detectable, balanced note of bitterness to compliment the inherent sweetness (no sugar added; both cups were consumed "straight"), the mouthfeel was fuller, more velvety than silky, and the finish much longer, richer, and more lingering.

Personally I can see how some people may prefer "skimming" the crema, but a) this strikes me as waaaaaayyyyyyyy too much trouble -- especially in a café setting, and b) the results in the cup, after skimming, do not strike me as espresso. To me, however, Cup A seems to be lacking its core.

Now, it needs to be said that this is based upon ONE tasting. Certainly this is NOT definitive in any way, shape, or form. Furthermore, it's based upon a sample using only one specific coffee bean/blend. In other words, I have only done this once, and I have only done it with one roast. This is a single snapshot, not a movie.

I've not yet tried stirring; that comparison will wait for another day.

Finally, I would like to thank James for his video, and indirectly, thank the Coffee Collective. It certainly is food for thought, and a fun "experiment."

Cheers,
Jason

Interesting discussion, but the entire assertion is ill posed. When using freshly roasted coffee, under "standard" espresso brewing conditions, espresso pours as virtually 100% crema. How much are you supposed to skim off? Should you wait a minute for it to settle, and then skim, as demonstrated in the video?


typical Spaz S1 pour

I just tried this (waiting and then skimming), using Klatch House Blend. Preliminary tasting results (with stirring): loss of complexity and mouthfeel when the residual crema is skimmed off.