Correct dose

by **qpsport** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:09 pm

I am confused regarding correct dose weight for producing the elusive "God Shot". The INEI ("The Italian Espresso National Institute safeguards and promotes the original Espresso through a product certification: the Certified Italian Espresso") stipulates 7 g +/- 0.5 Elsewhere I have read that at least on home machines, it is very difficult to pull a good shot using a single cup basket, and you should use a double basket. This requires a much larger dose weight e.g. 16-18 g. Obviously the proof is in the tasting, and I prefer the larger amount of coffee. I have never seen a double basket used in any of the espresso shops I have visited. Is that because commercial machines are that much better at extraction than my home Giotto? Or is the smaller amount simply a way to maximize the quality while minimizing amount of coffee used, i.e. cheaper than double the amount? Or do the "arbiters" at INEI prefer a different taste profile to those suggesting the double basket?

by **aindfan** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:40 pm

qpsport wrote:I have never seen a double basket used in any of the espresso shops I have visited.

Have you enjoyed the espresso that you had there? Can you ask for a double shot to compare the taste?

A lot (most/all) of the great cafes that I have been to (who keep quality high enough for me to return) either don't offer single shots (because their beans use one specific dose requiring a double/triple basket) or split a double shot into two cups, hoping that someone else orders another drink requiring the second half of the shot (as it otherwise goes down the drain).

Generally I start with the suggestions given by a roaster for the optimal espresso dose. The 7+/-.5 is an average sort of single shot starting point, and most blends in US seem to require 14-21g for a 1-2oz shot (note the great variance across those ranges).

As you have correctly observed, what tastes best to you is what you should be pulling, so no need to make shots at a dose someone else said to use if you don't like it.

by **cafeIKE** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:33 pm

Dose 'weight' per se has almost no bearing on the probability of pulling a G-shot.

Singles are not more difficult to pull, assuming one crosses all the i's and dots all the t's.
Doubles are easier for the sloppy because a 1g error on 16g is less percentage error than on 7g.

BTW, are you sure the shops are not using a double basket in a single spout PF?

by **another_jim** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:00 pm

qpsport wrote:I am confused regarding correct dose weight for producing the elusive "God Shot".

Short answer: different coffees are best at different doses.

Medium answer: Take a basket and fill it a little, say a double basket with 12 grams. Then you need to grind very fine to get the shot to flow at the right pace. Because you grind fine, you extract a lot of solubles from the puck. Take the same basket and fill it a lot, say a double basket at 18 grams. Then you need to grind coarsely to get the right flow, and you extract fewer solubles from the coffee. Acidic and sugary flavors extract fast, and will be in both shots. Caramel, chocolate and smoky flavors extract more slowly and will be more apparent in the low dose shot.

Long answer

by **malachi** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:20 pm

There is no universal "correct" dose and in fact many would argue that the concept of "correct" dose (regardless of lack of universality) is in an of itself somewhere between problematic and just wrong.

by **Psyd** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:11 pm

malachi wrote:many would argue that the concept of "correct" dose is in an of itself somewhere between problematic and just wrong.

With the possible exception of that term being applied to "the dose that I use to make this bean or blend act the way that I want it to".

If you find a dose that always performs as expected, and as you prefer, for a specific coffee, then that is the 'correct' dose for you.

Other than that, anything that can be ground to pull in around (or nearabouts) half a minute and will still fit in the basket, when locked in, could be described as potentially correct.

by **cannonfodder** on Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:27 pm

You cannot produce a God shot. They just happen, which is why it is called a God shot. Despite your best efforts you cannot intentionally pull a god shot. Now and then a good shot miraculously becomes a god shot. Now here is a caveat. The better you get at pulling shots the more consistent you will get. Good will become better and better will become best. God shots become few and very far between because your standards have risen.

by **AndyS** on Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:29 pm

another_jim wrote:Take a basket and fill it a little, say a double basket with 12 grams. Then you need to grind very fine to get the shot to flow at the right pace. Because you grind fine, you extract a lot of solubles from the puck. Take the same basket and fill it a lot, say a double basket at 18 grams. Then you need to grind coarsely to get the right flow, and you extract fewer solubles from the coffee.

For some time, I too, have believed the same theory: solubles yield is more or less inversely proportional to dose. It stands to reason that low doses, more finely ground, would yield higher. But I'm having a great deal of difficulty proving the theory with actual measurements.

For instance, today I did a series of shots using 49th Parallel's Epic Espresso Blend. I started with 18g doses, yielding 29g of beverage. This is a fairly typical espresso brew ratio of 18/29, or 62%. The solubles yield numbers were running about 18.5%

Then I pulled a series of shots using 14g doses. To maintain approximately the same shot timing, this required a grind three clicks finer on a new Anfim Super Caimano. But the results confounded my expectations.

With the 14g doses, maintaining about the same brew ratio, my measured solubles yield went DOWN 1.5% to 2%. To get back to the 18.5% solubles yield range, I had to pull "longer" shots (brew ratio ~54%, 26g of beverage). [see chart, below]

Notes:
(1) I'm measuring solubles yield (not solids yield) with a Terroir espresso refractometer.
(2) FWIW, the shots that tasted best balanced to me were 14g doses, ~22g beverage, ~54% brew ratio.

by **another_jim** on Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:42 pm

I had a very strong inverse relation on the M3 and the Mini, and much less of a slope, but still inverse ones with the conicals (the graphs are somewhere on the TGP thread). I figured since the taste variability was less too, the flatter yield curve was what made the conicals so much less screwup prone.

Your results make no sense to me. If they are true, the lower dose shots should taste more extreme, and the higher does ones more rounded, on the Caimano. If that part is true, then it's some real oddity in the burr design. But if the high/low dose taste relation remains the same, then my theory is screwed; since it means the taste changes on dosing have nothing to do with the extraction changes.

I'm not hugely wedded to my espresso extraction theory. But still, I'm not going to give up on it until I see a lot more counter evidence than that.

by **zin1953** on Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:06 am

qpsport wrote:I am confused regarding correct dose weight for producing the elusive "God Shot".

If it was as simple as "correct dose" = "God Shot", we'd all be praying at the Altar of Digital Scale . . .

In reality, however, god shots remain an elusive phenomenon.

qpsport wrote:The INEI ("The Italian Espresso National Institute safeguards and promotes the original Espresso through a product certification: the Certified Italian Espresso") stipulates 7 g +/- 0.5

No offense to the INEI, but who cares? It's what's in the cup that counts! Thus, whether or not the INEI approves of what you do in your kitchen is irrelevant . . . unless, of course, you were hoping to put one of their "INEI Approved -- Certified Italian Espresso" stickers on your kitchen window.

qpsport wrote:Elsewhere I have read that at least on home machines, it is very difficult to pull a good shot using a single cup basket, and you should use a double basket.

Not true.

qpsport wrote:This requires a much larger dose weight e.g. 16-18 g.

No it doesn't. You can pull the proverbial "god shot" with 16-18 grams in a double basket, but you can also pull a "god shot" with 14-14.5 grams in a double. Or 8 grams in a single. Or . . . or . . . or . . .

qpsport wrote:I have never seen a double basket used in any of the espresso shops I have visited.

You don't say where in Canada you live, but EVERY café/coffee house/restaurant I've visited in British Columbia routinely use double baskets. Indeed, all through places in Seattle, the San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles, and any place else I can think of off the top of my head routinely pull doubles. As Ian has already suggested, "are you sure the shops are not using a double basket in a single spout PF?"

qpsport wrote:Is that because commercial machines are that much better at extraction than my home Giotto? Or is the smaller amount simply a way to maximize the quality while minimizing amount of coffee used, i.e. cheaper than double the amount? Or do the "arbiters" at INEI prefer a different taste profile to those suggesting the double basket?

None of the above. And all of the above! Some commercial machines probably ARE "much better at extraction" than your Giotto. Then again, your Giotto is certainly the equal of some, and may even be better than some.

Since most cafés/coffee houses in North America serve doubles routinely (that is, you have to ask for a single), this has nothing to do with being "cheap" about their coffee usage. But, as has already been suggested to you, go to a café you know you like and order two straight espressos -- one single, one double -- and taste them . . .

Finally, as far as the INEI's "taste" is concerned, espresso in Italy is indeed different than espresso here. There are differences in roast, taste, etc. If you were able to have an INEI Certified straight espresso served to you, and an espresso served to you by the Canadian Barista Champion at the same time, they would no doubt be quite different.

Cheers,
Jason

by **Ken Fox** on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:51 am

malachi wrote:There is no universal "correct" dose and in fact many would argue that the concept of "correct" dose (regardless of lack of universality) is in an of itself somewhere between problematic and just wrong.

This is true if you enjoy all sorts of espressos, be they single origins, Italianate blends, or more intense and "in your face" N. American type blends. They all need to be dosed differently and perhaps the dosing will change as the coffee ages during its period of "consumability" after it is roasted.

You might, however, have less varied taste, either initially or after a period during which you thought that your taste was wide ranging. If we were talking about wine, for example, the analogy would be that after a while you no longer liked California Chardonnays or Cabernets because you came to the conclusion that French wines go better with food. In that case it would be perfectly reasonable to dispense entirely with the California wines and to concentrate on French ones. You might miss out on the odd food-friendly California wine, but by concentrating your efforts on French ones you would undoubtedly find wines you would have missed with more eclectic tastes. But I digress :mrgreen:

Using myself as an example (ok, I'm lazy as sh*t), I used to like many of those N. American blends that demand to be updosed, but in my senescence I've settled on certain types of single varietals that I feel are suboptimal when updosed, and hence I tend to dose around 14g and to pick coffees that make good espresso at that sort of dosing. The coffees that need to be updosed are now more or less undrinkable for me. But that is just my taste.

So, I'd take the proposition that you need to like every sort of coffee and you need to appreciate each one at its "appropriate dose" with a grain of salt. The most important thing for you to do is to decide what sorts of coffee you like, and the dosing will then fall into line depending on what it is that you like to drink.

ken

by **qpsport** on Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:45 pm

Wow! As a first time poster, I didn't expect such interesting responses from so many people. Thank you.

So, it is clear there is no single answer on amount of coffee to use. That doesn't stop me from asking this next question however

: Would you think that of all the posters on this forum, that in pulling a single 1oz shot at home, there is at least a consensus on whether it best to use a single or double basket?

by **malachi** on Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:14 pm

I think you'd find few who would argue that it is better to use a double basket to pull a 1oz single shot (though you'll find plenty who might argue that the "best" singles are a split double - which I guess is a purely semantic difference).

by **Fullsack** on Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:12 pm

Too me, what's at the bottom of the cup tastes better than the first sip. Why wouldn't you just pull half of a double into the cup, 10-15 seconds and then stop a double basket pull instead of doing a split?

by **malachi** on Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:35 pm

To many including me that tastes "incomplete".
Always interesting to pull a shot into 3 to 6 different demis (divided by increments of time) and taste the difference. It's a good learning exercise.

by **zin1953** on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:17 am

With the exception of a "split double," I can't even think of anyone who pulls a single "normale" shot with a double basket . . . .

by **AndyS** on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:30 am

another_jim wrote:Your results make no sense to me....if the high/low dose taste relation remains the same, then my theory is screwed; since it means the taste changes on dosing have nothing to do with the extraction changes.

Yeah, the results of this particular session were a surprise to me, too! Mostly (with the Robur), I've measured a fairly flat dose/yield relationship, not this directly proportional one.

I speculate that the answer may lie partly in the correlation between dose and peoples' chosen brew ratio. IOW, is someone's shots are more "lungo" with low doses and more "ristretto" with high doses (based on brew ratio definitions), then the inverse dose/yield relationship is preserved.

by **Whale** on Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:26 am

zin1953 wrote:With the exception of a "split double," I can't even think of anyone who pulls a single "normale" shot with a double basket . . . .

It is possible but you have to serioulsy updose since the design of the basket does not redirect the flow like a single basket does. In the end (pushing it a bit far) if you updose a lot and end up with 1 oz or so, you are pretty much pulling a ristretto.

qpsport wrote: ...Would you think that of all the posters on this forum, that in pulling a single 1oz shot at home, there is at least a consensus on whether it best to use a single or double basket?

IMHO a single basket is clearly BETTER (I will regret this....) for pulling a single shot using a "normal" dose of coffee. THe design of the basket is such that the flow is concentrated in a smaller area, this is good for both extraction and fine migration (flow restriction).

With regards to the original question; the INEI recommendations are a very good start. They give good taste results (IMHO) and are the basis for the concept of updose and downdose.

FWIW, I am currently dosing 7 for a 1 oz single and 15 for a double 2 oz, and often go to Italian blends. Maybe I have a few italian taste buds or my brains functions the same way... Since the Italians are crazy That would make me crazy as well!!! :shock:

by **CafSuperCharged** on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:21 am

In addition to super posters' opinions, I would say there are many variables in the espresso process. So by keeping a few of them (almost) constant this provides something to start with.

In Italy, ordering a caffè means you will have a single shot of espresso (demitasse less than half full). Many coffee houses use a local blend or one they roast themselves and the blending and roasting are done relative to the bar's reference values for those variables.
If you step into a coffee house and order caffè, they will usually combine your preparation with someone else's, 99% of the time using a double dose of coffee in a double portafilter giving two caffè.
I even noticed when I was waiting long enough according to the barista without a second customer coming in, they did a double with one trickle of coffee running into the drip tray.

Personally, I tried singles, but never got it to work as well as I like. Also, I have noticed from tasting, as well as discussions in these fora, that thickness of the coffee bed and headroom between coffee bed and shower screen, influence taste. So the shape of a single filter basket will certainly matter.

Regards
Peter

by **cannonfodder** on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:58 am

An excerpt from the Buyer's Guide to the Vibiemme Domobar Super Bench thread shows how I find my single shot starting point. Singles tend to be very picky on dose.

Today I decided to work on some single shots from the Domobar Super. Single shots tend to be more challenging especially for US users. The trick is dosing, most people have become accustom to overdosing. They simply thwack the doser while grinding until they have a small mound above the rim of the basket. Then sweep the grinds level with the basket and tamp. With a single basket you simply cannot do that. Singles take more finesse and an eye for detail.

The end goal is a one ounce drink produced around 28 seconds. The diminished dose of a single requires a finer grind so an adjustment on the grinder is needed, but before you can adjust the grind you must find a starting dose. One of the critical points is to get the proper headspace (the air space between the top of the puck and shower screen). If you overdose a single you may not be able to lock the portafilter into the group or the surface of the puck will scrape against the shower screen. That will crack and disturb the puck that you spent so much time preparing.

One trick that can be used to gauge your dose starting point is to use a nickel as a gauge. Dose into your basket and tamp, then place a nickel on the surface of the puck and lock your portafilter into the group. Then remove the portafilter and look at the puck. If the nickel is pushed deeply into the pucks surface, or there is any cracking of the puck, your dose is too high.

To demonstrate this, and assist myself in finding a starting point for the single dose on the VBM, I decided to use this method. I started off with a 10 gram dose in the stock single basket. I distributed my dose by tapping my finger against the side of the basket. I also tap my basket down against my tamping stand to further level and settle the dose. Tamp, put my nickel in the center of the puck, lock it in and remove.

As you can see, the dose is too large. The shower screen did not contact the puck but the nickel was press deeply into the pucks surface causing radial cracks in its surface.

Using the results from the 10 gram test, I dosed down to 9 grams for the second try. Once again I prepared my dose and placed the nickel in the center of the pucks surface and locked in the portafilter. This time the nickel was slightly indented in the surface of the puck. I decided to use 9 grams as my starting point.

I continued to down dose without the nickel to see how low I could go. I continued to reduce the dose by .5 gram increments until my tamper was bottoming out against the concave sides of the single basket. At 8 grams my tamper was bottoming out against the sides of the basket. I was still getting a leveled tamp but it was not getting fully compacted by the tamp. You will feel when the tamper is hitting the basket instead of being stopped by the puck.

I decided on a 9 gram dose for the Ambrosia blend I was using. An 8.5 gram dose would also work but I was very, very close to bottoming out the tamper. You could also do like the Italians and grind extra fine and use a very light tamp just to level the puck.

I find the single shots from the Domobar Super to be comparable with other E61 vibratory pump machines. The singles tasted a little sweeter and brighter than the doubles with a creamier mouthfeel. A good shot and well worth the work.


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