Whale wrote: . . . if you updose a lot and end up with 1 oz or so, you are pretty much pulling a ristretto.

Granted. Thus my use of the word "normale," something that would not result from using an updosed double basket . . .

I think sometimes you have to stop asking questions and just try stuff.

My own experience with singles went something like this: I read a lot of posts about how hard it is to prep good singles, so I avoided it and concentrated on learning how to pull good doubles. At one point I tried a single, and it didn't go well. I can't recall whether I pulled it on the Silvia or GS/3, but it spritzed all over the place and tasted awful. I kept meaning to try again, but there was always something else taking up my "experimental time" (as we used to call it at the dawn of the computer age.)

Last week I finally pulled another single. At the time I was pouring Terroir Ademe Bedane Ethiopian, a somewhat bright SO that seems to like doses in the 13g-14g range for a double. Believing I had to grind a lot finer, I choked the machine. Then I recalled a recent thread where someone said that, for the same coffee, the grind setting doesn't have to change much, if at all, between a single and double. Sure enough, I set the Baratza Vario back to the setting I was using for a double, ground about half the amount (~7g vs ~14g) by adjusting the timer, and got a very good pour. I wouldn't call it espresso porn (the Ademe Bedane pours somewhat thin and light), but the volume and time at blonding were OK, the brew ratio was within bounds for a normale and there was no significant channeling or spritzing. The shot tasted quite good, a little smoother than the double.

I've been using the same grind setting for singles and doubles for the past few days and it seems to be quite reproducible. I've been pulling and drinking a couple of singles, then a double for a latte. I have the Vario's espresso timer set for something like 9.2 seconds for a double, and the filter timer set for something like 4.5 seconds for the single. Granted, the dose weight of the single may not be exactly 1/2 the double, which may be fortuitously compensating for the grind setting being the same. I tend not to get too OCD about the dose. I just make sure it's close to the desired 7g or 14g, say within .2g or so.

As for distribution and tamping, I shake the PF after grinding, tamp once lightly with the small (single) end of the plastic tamper that came with the GS/3, which pushes most of the grounds down into the indentation at the bottom of the basket, then shake and move the rest of the grounds into the indentation with my finger. Then I do a somewhat firm tamp, probably 15-20 lbs. My sense is that I could use less pressure and the pull would still be OK.

Singles are working so well that I've started playing around with preinfusion, pulling the first single without preinfusion and the second with preinfusion (some have said that LM intended the preinfusion option primarily for singles.) I'm still playing around with the preinfusion timing to get maximum saturation of the puck, but preliminary results are encouraging -- i.e., I like the taste of the singles with preinfusion better.

So, while asking questions is good, you tend to learn more, especially about your own tastes and equipment, by trying different things.

So to be clear, you believe that the shape, hole pattern, and water flow from a double basket, works almost as well with the specifically designed shape that is made for a single basket with little or few changes except for the lower dose?

IE the basket was made for it?

-C

Again many thanks for the interesting reading. Am I understanding correctly then

1) that when I use a double filter basket, with 14-16 gms of coffee, with a single spout porta filter, with a 28 second pull for 1oz, then I am "up-dosing"?

2) and that most espresso cafes use the same set up but use a double spout producing two 1oz shots at the same time, i.e. 8gms per shot ("normal dosing")?

3) Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for the shop, and me, to just use a single basket requiring half the dose and not waste the other shot?

4) Or is it really that much more difficult to produce a good shot with a single basket and/or is there some taste benefit to up-dosing?

qsport wrote:1) that when I use a double filter basket, with 14-16 gms of coffee, with a single spout porta filter, with a 28 second pull for 1oz, then I am "up-dosing"?

No.
"up-dosing" is generally defined as simply "adding more coffee than the norm" for a specific shot.
Different double baskets take different "norm" amounts - as do different machines with the same basket.

So... if you are using a LM Linea with an OEM ridged double basket and dose 14grams you are, in fact, down-dosing (ie dosing LESS than the norm) but if you dose 18grams you are up-dosing.


Spout...
Portafilter...
Extraction time...
These have NOTHING to do with "up" or "down" dosing.

qsport wrote:2) and that most espresso cafes use the same set up but use a double spout producing two 1oz shots at the same time, i.e. 8gms per shot ("normal dosing")?

there is no standard within coffee bars outside of very specific cases (parts of Italy for example). By "no standard" I mean dose, volume, extraction time, equipment... you name it.

qsport wrote:3) Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for the shop, and me, to just use a single basket requiring half the dose and not waste the other shot?

If you are asking "why don't coffee bars use single baskets for single shots".... that's an entirely different question with a very simple answer.

1 - some coffee bars do in fact use single baskets.
2 - those that don't use single baskets generally make this choice due to the paramount need for their baristas to be able to quickly and consistently produce drinkable espresso. In other words, time and consistency are worth the trade-off in incremental costs.

qsport wrote:4) Or is it really that much more difficult to produce a good shot with a single basket and/or is there some taste benefit to up-dosing?

There is no relationship between single v double and "up-dosing". You're conflating two entirely different topics.

It's not that much more difficult to produce good espresso from a single basket.
But it's VERY hard to quickly (and consistently) switch back and forth between single and double baskets in a commercial environment.

qpsport wrote:1) that when I use a double filter basket, with 14-16 gms of coffee, with a single spout porta filter, with a 28 second pull for 1oz, then I am "up-dosing"?

As Chris has already said, spouts, portafilters, timing, etc. have nothing to do with it. That said, if you go by the "standards" (and there is considerable variance in these "standards"), a double shot is made from 14 grams of coffee resulting in a 2 oz. pour. Now, while I agree with Chris that you are not updosing in the above example, you are pulling a ristretto.

qpsport wrote:2) and that most espresso cafes use the same set up but use a double spout producing two 1oz shots at the same time, i.e. 8gms per shot ("normal dosing")?

3) Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for the shop, and me, to just use a single basket requiring half the dose and not waste the other shot?

4) Or is it really that much more difficult to produce a good shot with a single basket and/or is there some taste benefit to up-dosing?

Chris has also covered these questions quite well, but I would add one thing: in many "serious" cafés/coffee bars, not only is "time and consistency are worth the trade-off in incremental costs," as Chris said, but also I've found that single baskets also require a grind adjustment compared to a double. Thus, all the more reason to pull a double with one half going down the drain -- you aren't wasting coffee attempting to dial in a single, and then wasting more "re-dialing" the double.

Just my 2¢; YMMV.

Cheers,
Jason

To further clarify...

"Dose" refers to the amount of ground coffee put into the portafilter basket prior to extraction but after distribution, etc.

While there is no "correct" dose - there are generally accepted mean dose for a combination of basket and machine. So there is a mean dose for a single OEM LM basket on a LM Linea and a mean dose for a double OEM Faema basket on a Brewtus - etc, et. Now.... the complicating issue is that there is no scientific absolute or even universally agreed-upon definition of what this mean is. This is further complicated by the fact that there is the assumption within parts of the coffee world that there is, in fact, an absolute standard (the afore-mentioned 14g double dose). In reality, this "norm" is only the mean for a specific combination of basket and machine (standard E61 group with a Faema OEM double).

"Up-dose" refers to a dose that is higher than the mean.
"Down-dose" refers to a dose that is lower than the mean.

Neither "up-dose" nor "down-dose" are scientific or absolute terms and are generally "directional" in nature.

It may be best to simply define the correct dose as whatever weight is best for the particular coffee being used on the equipment at hand.

Then dosing becomes a matter of diagnostics, that is, tasting the shot and deciding whether it needs more or less coffee.

Mostly, if the coffee taste flat, without much in distinct flavors, you should dose more. If the coffee tastes harsh and angular, with too many bitter and sours, you should dose less.

The single worst thing you can do is assume that there is some correct predetermined method of getting the right dose, and then never changing it no matter how badly the espresso sucks. In my experience, changing the dose is usually the best way of fixing a shot that is completely out of whack; while changing temperatures, pressures and shot volumes is more appropriate for fine tuning the taste balance.

+1