How is the flow from the showerhead (no portafilter)? A gunky dispersion screen can cause many of your symptoms, and is easily diagnosed by seeing if water is spritzing irregularly from the group.

boar_d_laze wrote:Try to get your grind settings right. In addition to bean type and age, the best grind setting will also change with the weather. Be flexible with your first couple of shots, and willing to change the grinder. What you did yesterday may bear little resemblance to what you should be doing today.
Ive come to realize a difference in the SO CC apollo vs the redbird blend
You don't need to dose by weight. Slightly overdose the basket and use a finger sweep to level and get rid of the excess grounds. Whatever that is, it's the right dose in the stock basket. If you like, you can weigh the charge to see how consistent it is -- you'll be pleasantly surprised.
18g has been a slight overdose in the double basket. It is a bit hard for me to get away from the analytics of it all but I may need to sit back and erm watch the flow
The Livia is not very demanding about tamps. Grind a little finer and use a lighter tamp than you might in another machine -- if that means anything to you. If it doesn't, just try and get your grind right and don't worry about it for a few months.
I get the jest of what you are saying here and will give it a go! My vario still has one tab finer on the MACRO side so I am sure I am a bit coarse. Problem is if I go to finest macro setting even with a coarse micro setting than I clog the grouphead

Yes, a level tamp will make a positive difference in the cup. After dosing your basket, very lightly tamp it just to level. Take a look to make sure, then give it your best "real" tamp. BTW, it can be significantly less than the supposedly ideal 30#.

There's nothing wrong with the stock baskets. You don't need an LM or Synesso to get great shots from the Livia. You might want to pull shorter shots though with the shallower baskets. Whatever you're using, don't overfill.
Dont overfill? didn't you just recommend a slight overfill,brush off with finger and tamp? would it help if I dosed what I do in the double into a triple for headspace?
Okay, tamping isn't next to Godliness, BUT... For heaven's sake, get a tamper that's the right size for whatever basket you're using. That means one which will go all the way down to the coffee. What are you thinking with a tamper too big for your basket?
well I have a 58mm tamper and it fit my triple and single fine. Being new to espresso I mistakenly ordered a pasquini double(figuring I would want to make sure it fit as it said for pasquini) but the basket is tapered so it is 58mm on top but tapers to say 53mm very disheartening and probably unusable. It does appear this has happened to a few individuals on CG in which they recommended a lighter tamp and finer grind, different basket or smaller tamper. I wanted a double to learn on because I was going through 21-22g on the triple pretty fast
I bought my Livia in '88 along with a Pasquini Moka grinder, and used both of them daily for 22 years. For almost all that time, I "up-tamped" Euro-style on the tamper screwed to the Moka's doser. It was a lighter tamp and a finer grind than most baristas would use with a regular tamper, and it worked just fine. In case you missed it, the moral of the story isn't "up-tamping," it's how un-demanding the machine is in that respect and how much you can do with grind.

You want enough coffee in the basket for the size shot you've decided to draw. You want enough of a tamp to maintain headspace, keeping the top of the puck under the screen and out out of the works. You want a fine enough grind to prevent under-extraction and coarse enough to prevent over-extraction. Everything else is nuance. It is nice to use tamp pressure to help control flow rate -- but stay conservative and don't tamp too hard. Grind is your best source of control, your primary parameter.
tamp effects flow? hmm more variables by the way your review of the livia has been a wonderful source of information
If it's any comfort, you haven't stood still. Over the course of your ownership, your grind and distribution techniques have improved to the point where you're not starting with a complete clog or a gusher. That's very good.
Well, the fact that my wife ditched her brand new brewbot for my cappas has helped granted piss poor milk technique to boot as well.
At this point, the most important piece of advice I can give you is not to be afraid of the off switch. Turn the pump off when you get blonding, not by volume or because you're hoping to get close to a particular pour time. You're waiting too long.

Blonding is a clue. If the coffee blonds too fast, you want to make sure you're getting enough coffee into the basket, getting it in there evenly, and that it's ground fine enough. But more often than not, it's a sign that the fines are fully extracted. You can think of it as "not enough coffee," which is sometimes true; or as "too much water" which is always true. I'm not going to say that your shots are blonding too fast (they're not), but I am seeing too much blond before you turn off.
I appreciate this! I have been afraid of the off switch and will start using it
A lot of other things are clues too. So watch the coffee more than the clock, the dynometric tamper, the dosometric buttons, the gauge, the scale, or anything else you're counting on for "objective" or quantifiable certainty. The goal is coffee, not a set of numbers. Look, listen, smell, touch, taste.

Here's an example: Where in the cooling shot do you stop hearing steam sputters? What's too soon? What's too late? If you hear sputtering at the end of the shot, do you pull another blank? If the sputtering stops after the first couple of ml, do you wait a while before pulling the real shot to give the machine a chance to recover?
Hmm, I may just need to post a video of my whole routine but my cooling shot is only a few ounces. I am not sure I even hear sputters and may have adjusted the dial next to boiler to far but will post a video. I only pull one blank typically 2 ounces and immediatly pull shot. I was told livia has a very quick recovery and needed a small cooling shot to start.
The biggest challenge with the Livia is temperature control. Your shot pull videos are very informative, but it would be interesting to see your pre-shot routine as well -- including dosing, tamping, and whatever "cooling shot" routine you use.

Use the tastes of bitterness and sourness as your primary diagnostic tools for "too hot" or "too cold." Pay attention to what you taste.

I know the drip tray is small and inconvenient, but be profligate with water. Lots of water is an HX's best friend.

Everything inside the Livia's group gets dirty very easily, and needs frequent and thorough cleaning. More than just backflusing, that includes regular removal of the screen and showerhead. Plan on: (1) DAILY brushing and backflushing the group, scouring the pf and basket, emptying and rinsing knock box and drip tray; (2) WEEKLY backflushing with a chemical cleaner such as Joe Glo or Full Circle, including soaking the basket and pf in a "wicked liquid" solution of cleaner and water for at least a few hours before scouring, wash the knock box and drip tray with soap and water or in the dishwasher; and (3) MONTHLY removal and soaking of the screen and showerhead. The Livia showerhead clogs easily, and is very difficult to clean if it does.

Also, keep the area around the Livia (including the knock box and drip tray) very clean. Old, smelly coffee will mask the new coffee's smells. Check under the machine every day by tipping it backwards, after you remove the drip tray. Wipe and/or clean as necessary. Wipe down your machine when you replace the drip tray after rinsing, it will help you spot problems before they occur.

The best and easiest way to keep things clean is to clean often.
Right now I am doing a portafilter wiggle after each shot. cleaning with pallo brush daily and backwashing with cafeza weekly but I havent yet removed the showerhead,dispersion screen, grouphead. I do wash portafilter and steamwand in solution. It was bought used but from a supposed espresso tech.
Hope this helps,
BDL

This is a video of the grouphead screen. Is flow ok or should it be given a good clean and new gaskets?


thank you david and boar_d_laze!!! very helpful!

The flow looks OK to me. (At least, it isn't spritzing wildly - I don't know if the slight unevenness there is characteristic of the Livia.) You could check that the volume is OK (google espresso water debit).

With respect to tamping, don't obsess. You could even adjust the grind a bit finer and not tamp at all (though this works better on rotary pump machines).

Let's see.

Slightly overdose the basket, then finger-sweep it to a slight, net underdose. Sweep in the direction of any holes or low distribution, then sweep any excess off in the other direction. Wipe any crumbs off the top of the basket. Then, and only then, start your tamping ritual.

With the weirdly shaped stock baskets, that should get you somewhere around 15.5g. Try weighing a basket and see. In any case, the idea is to find a way of consistently dosing a workable amount without getting hung up on the scale. We want to limit the variables while not getting lost in that processes details. And, to whatever extent is possible, we want to train your senses.

A small charge in a big basket probably won't do particularly well. Baskets tend to work best within a relatively narrow range of doses. If I were to say that the reasons were unimportant would you realize that I didn't understand them?

You do nice wordplay.

Use the best grind your grinder can give you for the conditions. Nothing's perfect. If you have to switch grinders to something that works better with your machine (or vice versa) it's just one of those things. Don't worry, though. You won't need to.

If you have to err, go too fine. If a little too fine is way too fine, go as fine as you can without clogging.

Learn to recognize what the right grind feels like by rolling a pinch between thumb and finger. It rides the edge between powder and gritty -- being simultaneously both but neither. Touch is not as sensitive a diagnostic as watching the shot flow and tasting, but it's a good tool to have in your bag of tricks.

Which double basket are you using? Stock Pasquini or LM? FWIW, the stock basket works fine (although if it comes from Pasquini it's going to cost more), but won't hold as much as a Synesso or LM.

If you have a double which fits your tamper, stick with that for now. It's ridiculous (although possible) to use a basket without a functional tamper of some sort. Otherwise order a Synesso, an LM Strada (expensive!) or a new tamper.

I'm using a Concept Art 58mm and am pretty sure it would fit your LM. Rattleware are very well made, reasonably priced, and would probably fit as well. If you do go Concept Art or Reg Barber, get both a curved and flat base and screw around. Fun as it is, and as much as it soothes the OCD demons, let's not dwell on tamping or tampers.

Just starting out, you want to go with 15 - 18g charges, and pull around 25 - 30g shots. I'm not saying pull out your scale, I'm just sayin', if you know what I mean. What you really want to do is just barely fill the basket with a little mound right in the middle, finger swipe, lightly tamp just to level, look in the basket to check, tamp to below the ridge, pull the shot and stop pulling before the stream blondes too much.

If the coffee runs too fast or too slow, adjust your grinder until it runs appropriately. If you have your temps right, everything in the cup should be jake. If it isn't, then we start messing with other things.

At some point, you'll want to try a naked portafilter. But not yet.

The Livia articulates temperatures. You want to listen for sputtering from the group with the pf out, and from the opv (when it waters into the drip tray) with an empty basket in the pf. I didn't hear anything in your video, but that could be the placement of your mike.

You want your Pasquini to operate at a "right" temperature when you're slamming out shots. But like most other HXs you want it to idle just a touch too hot when it's not idling for more than a few minutes, and control that excess heat with cooling shots.

If it idles for more than ten minutes or so, you want it to get quite hot. You still use cooling flushes, but their purpose is not only to adjust the temp in the HX but harmonize the temps throughout the path. You may need multiple cooling flushes, or not. You most definitely want the machine TOO DAMN HOT before cooling it down and pulling your first shot. With the Livia, that's about a 30 minute warm up from room temperature.

Don't expect Livia's first shot of the day to be very good. Like so many of us, she needs a cup of coffee to get started.

You may want to return your pstat to the previous owner's setting. Or not. Try cranking it back up, and listening for the steam after the new setting has had a chance to kick in. A higher steam pressure may make steaming milk work better for you as well. Again, or not.

This isn't a DB PID, it's an HX and (at the risk of repetition) "just-right" for an HX is "too hot." Yes, you have to fool around some to get the brew temp where you want it, but you have total and instant control over temperatures just by running a little water. Cheaper, too.

On the other hand, if it's idling at "just right," most shots will be pulled too cold.

How do you know? It's easy. Too hot is too bitter, too cold is too sour, you'll feel on the nose as self-congratulatory shoulder pain. "Well done, self. Well done."

Judging by your last video your showerhead and screen are clean enough for good flow; but get used to pulling and cleaning them on a regular basis anyway. You're using a machine filled with all sorts of delicate stuff to function properly with an inherently destructive compound in the heart of the system. You don't want coffee oils to bake onto the showerhead. Brush and backflush every damn time before you turn off. You don't need to use a chemical cleaner every day, once a week is enough. Once the water left in the blank basket is completely clear and clean, the group is sufficiently cleaned for daily maintenance. You want everything in your brewing area to be at least as clean as it would be in a very good coffee bar.

Sorry about the nagging. It sounds like you're already doing the right things, or most of them. And heaven knows, you're trying.

Thus endeth the sermon,
BDL

PS. Glad my remarks on CoffeeGeek were helpful.

Don't worry about nagging, I'm documenting all the tidbits of information for later use and its VERY helpful!

I have also been using FRCN's link below for documenting my espresso technique.
http://www.frcndigital.com/coffee/HowToEspresso.html

I did document a video of my whole walkthrough(well my wife did the documenting) and go figure I chocked the machine with my only condolence being I switched beans. Before posting the video, my general steps:

1)machine is on ~45min before any shots are pulled and usually longer.
a) I adjusted my pstat back to original settings. This puts the gauge in the front at around 1.5bar or a little in to the "red zone" and I did finally hear some sputtering and saw a bit of water dance. I may still increase the pstat a bit more. My shots the last few days did taste a bit sour but the confusion between sour and bitter wouldn't surprise a newbie taste tester like myself.
Since I can always bring the temp down with a cooling flush it only makes sense to keep the pstat a bit high as long as it doesn't hurt the machine if its in the red while idle?

2)Use hot water arm to warm shot glass. pstat gauge drops quite a bit into the green(more than doing a cooling flush)

3)weigh beans,place in hopper,remove portafilter from grouphead
4)grind into portafilter,finger swipe excess,light tamp, moderate tamp
5)cooling flush ~ 2 seconds with pstat gauge dropping from slightly red @1.5bar to ~1.3 bar in the green which would be closer to the red zone area.pull shot.
6)portafilter wiggle,clean



Since I chocked the machine, I recorded another shot.

Seemed a bit bitter to me but not a bad shot. Still developing my taste buds. Redbird espresso roasted 7/25 for all videos.

I have the ESPRESSOPARTS BARISTA BASICS ESPRESSO TAMPER - 58MM FLAT
Honestly, I really have no idea what baskets I have but I took a picture
the basket on the left(right upside down) is what I was using since it fits my 58mm and is straight walled. The one on the right(left upside down) is one I ordered, foolishly, and is tapered towards the bottom and thus does not fit my tamper but it is a double

thank for all the help guys!

Hi Jon,

Things are looking up, eh?

Well, the cause of some confusion is revealed. I didn't realize you were single dosing your blender when I suggested finger swiping.

You might want to try putting enough beans in the hopper so you can eyeball an overdose, then use a finger to swipe the extra off. It depends on the basket of course, but that's usually a pretty good way to start with a Pasquini. Then you can start working around the "natural dose," whatever it is and either down or updose as taste dictates.

It's not that important. Just stay reasonably consistent.

Your pre-shot prep looks good. Presumably the first shot's grind was too tight, but the second's flow looked pretty good. Grind is something you're going to be fighting as long as you make espresso, especially with extra sensitive Livia.

You seem to be on the right track with temps. But a little more information couldn't hurt. Could it?

I can't tell you whether "slightly in the red" or "1.5" are problems or not. My machine didn't have a gauge, everything was seat of the pants and dead reckoning. You could call Pasquini or the service-tech/previous owner and ask, I suppose.

In the meantime, as long as you have a gauge, what kind of variation are you getting in the deadband? Big pressure swings with no activity indicate some sort of problem. Could be something with the pstat itself, or could mean that pressure's too low or too high, or...

Still, the coffee's getting better and that's got to count for something.

Also check for the efficiency of the steam. With the pstat dialed up, you should be getting much better steam. A happy wife and all that.

Okay... so...

Boiler pressure is going to determine temp at idle, but not so much once you get things going. You probably know how an HX works, but just in case...

There's a boiler tank in the machine with a heating element, some water and a coiled pipe inside. Fresh water enters the boiler, partially fills it, and is heated until steam forms above the water level. The pressure the steam puts on the water is the "boiler pressure," and it is indeed a product of the temp. PV = NRT, if you'll recall.

The coiled pipe -- called the heat exchanger -- is partially immersed in the water, and partially in the steam. Cool brew water enters coiled pipe (called the heat exchanger) from outside the boiler, and is brought to temp by the heat of the water and steam surrounding the pipe.

When you pull a shot, the water flows from the HX through the path, the head, into the pf basket, and through the puck.

The entire brew path, including the group are made from conductive metal. The heat generated by the boiler heats the path of course. And the water flowing through the path can raise or lower the path's temp, just as the heat of the path will alter the the temp of brew water coming from the HX. It's a consequence of the "Zeroth Law" of Thermodynamics.

The reason I'm telling you all this is to make sure you understand what causes the drop in pressure when you use the hot water top and/or steam wand, and why that may or may not have a huge effect on the temp of the water coming from the HX through the brew head. In short, your gauge readings aren't giving you much useful information beyond the fact that you're raising and lowering the water and steam volumes in the boiler. Reliance is misplaced.

If you really want to know what's going on with temp in the pf, the best way is to measure it directly with something called a "thermometer." There's a special set up called a "Scace Device" which gives extremely accurate measurements for espresso machines. They're expensive, but if you like you can rent one for a fairly reasonable price.

However, while a Scace's precise temp measurements are interesting and may be very beneficial down the line -- you're probably better off trying to keep all the other variables as static as possible, while you screw with grind and cooling flushes.

You'll not only improve your technique but your palate -- which is not only the best instrument for fine tuning, but for delight as well.

BDL

Thanks again BDL for the advice and ongoing up to date emails!

I figured I would update the group in hopes it will continue to help me and others. I have been through roughly 7-8 pounds of mostly redbird and some counterculture apollo. I will be trying some paradise roaster neuvo next I think for some milk based drinks and a change.

I believe my tamping is now pretty level and I am pretty happy with my preshot prep. I seem to be battling blonding and when to stop the shot as my tastebuds become more familar with good espresso. The good news I think about this is it seems to be a natural progression of "newbieness." My wife loathes anything but my drinks and I haven't had any sinkers in awhile. I do still believe i have quite a lot of growth to due and plan on another 5lbs of coffee and then a naked pf.

BDL shared with me a neat tip on americano's that I have enjoyed in which I add the shot to water rather than vis versa.

My current battle-
This is a heavier tamp with a slightly coarser grind. Taste has that "buttery texture" with hints of chocolate. The very bottom has some intense notes that are quite bright. Volume is a little short


This pull is a lighter tamp and a slightly finer grind. If I tamp heavy at this grind setting I clog the system.
Texture is perfect, real buttery and quite a pleasure to hold in the mouth. Much richer chocolate tones and the "flavor shock" at the end is subdued. A much faster pull and technically incorrect if you think of the 25-30sec double but it is the better tasting of the two.




Coffee used was Redbird its about 7 days post roast. My shots now vary between video one(slightly coarse underextracted) and the last one blonding, a bit fine and faster. Atleast they are all tasting pretty good now moreso in milk but I digress

My wife loathes anything but my drinks and I haven't had any sinkers in awhile.

That's hard to beat. Only thing to watch out for is she'll soon be inviting people over for your drinks.

Texture is perfect, real buttery and quite a pleasure to hold in the mouth. Much richer chocolate tones and the "flavor shock" at the end is subdued. A much faster pull and technically incorrect if you think of the 25-30sec double...

"Technically correct" is something that makes sense at McDonalds or Starbucks. You've hit it on the head with

...but it is the better tasting of the two.

No more "newb" posts for you!