Clueless regarding key to "sweet" espresso? - Page 4

by **geoffbeier** on Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:18 pm

michael wrote:there is a blend called sweettooth that is actually pretty sweet

Ritual? I think the blend is no more

They do offer a "Sweet Tooth" SO every month now, though. I haven't tried this one... couldn't say how sweet it is.

by **yakster** on Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:03 pm

TheBlacksmith wrote:Good post! The 'high dose'.. I'm assuming that's with the 58mm PF... I normally dose 15 - 15.5g with my lil 49mm basket.

Don't get me wrong in my quest for the sweet/sweeter shot. I also enjoy the shot particularly if it's not sour/bitter, I do (kinda) like 'earthy'. I don't get excited about the "clarity" of the shot... if that makes sense. My drip gives me clarity of cup.

Thanks for the input.

I normally dose about 14 grams in my 45 mm La Peppina double and always dose 7 grams in the single basket. I did pack the double once or twice with something slightly North of 19 grams after reading the thread What Else Tastes like Peppina where coffee.me was searching to duplicate the thick flavors he gets from packing his La Peppina basket with 20 grams and assisting the spring lever to increase the pressure on his HX. I did get a very thick, fruity-sweet pull on Ritual's Snowcone blend, but lately I've been enjoying dosing lighter, grinding coarser, tamping lighter and letting the spring do most of the work. I've actually been enjoying the 7 gram singles more now then the doubles with a quick partial pump and go instead of the technique I use for doubles that involves multiple pumps for a longer pre-infusion.

I'd say that it took me a couple of months to really get comfortable with a technique that I'm happy with and that I get consistent results... not that I don't still experiment. Having the PID on the La Peppina, I'd say that one of the characteristics of the shots that I get is clarity of flavors without a lot of muddiness.

For home roasted blends, I've really liked Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber and New Classic Espresso. The former having some funky, earthy flavors from the Monsooned Malibar component and the latter being brighter, fruitier and maybe sweeter, more in the US style of espressos. Workshop # 8 was a little harder to pull, and thinner at first but I liked it better after I'd given it time to rest... just roasted 200 grams of Moka Kadir last night and I'm looking forward to trying this as espresso for the first time.

I do know that I'm more apt to taste the flavors that are written up for an espresso blend when I'm at my favorite coffee bar and the Barista is prompting me with leading questions about what I taste in there... it helps to have a pro Barista pull the shot, but it also helps if someone asks you if you taste grapefruit or pomegranate to frame what your tasting this way. I guess that's the sizzle that they're selling with espresso.

by **TheBlacksmith** on Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:19 pm

yakster wrote:I normally dose about 14 grams in my 45 mm La Peppina double and always dose 7 grams in the single basket. I did pack the double once or twice with something slightly North of 19 grams after reading the thread What Else Tastes like Peppina where coffee.me was searching to duplicate the thick flavors he gets from packing his La Peppina basket with 20 grams and assisting the spring lever to increase the pressure on his HX. I did get a very thick, fruity-sweet pull on Ritual's Snowcone blend, but lately I've been enjoying dosing lighter, grinding coarser, tamping lighter and letting the spring do most of the work. I've actually been enjoying the 7 gram singles more now then the doubles with a quick partial pump and go instead of the technique I use for doubles that involves multiple pumps for a longer pre-infusion.

I'd say that it took me a couple of months to really get comfortable with a technique that I'm happy with and that I get consistent results... not that I don't still experiment. Having the PID on the La Peppina, I'd say that one of the characteristics of the shots that I get is clarity of flavors without a lot of muddiness.

For home roasted blends, I've really liked Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber and New Classic Espresso. The former having some funky, earthy flavors from the Monsooned Malibar component and the latter being brighter, fruitier and maybe sweeter, more in the US style of espressos. Workshop # 8 was a little harder to pull, and thinner at first but I liked it better after I'd given it time to rest... just roasted 200 grams of Moka Kadir last night and I'm looking forward to trying this as espresso for the first time.

I do know that I'm more apt to taste the flavors that are written up for an espresso blend when I'm at my favorite coffee bar and the Barista is prompting me with leading questions about what I taste in there... it helps to have a pro Barista pull the shot, but it also helps if someone asks you if you taste grapefruit or pomegranate to frame what your tasting this way. I guess that's the sizzle that they're selling with espresso.

That's what I'm talkin about! Thanks for your 'personal' response.

by **benm5678** on Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:41 pm

great topic!
i've also been wondering/frustrated etc... i mean "chocolate" in espresso?!?... comon'
my quest is 2 years long now.
i've already learned, not to expect to arrive anywhere quick, but to enjoy the journey...

i can tell u that lately i have much more luck with lighter roasts and lower temperatures... it definitely brings out the flavor, and i've experienced what i believe is a sweet shot... where all the flavors are so perfectly balanced, nothing overbearing... with a fruity sweetness that shines through. It's crazy how a slight roast difference can help... Moka Kadir is awesome... i also have very good luck with the SM's 'new classic' blend.

Love the challenge of this mysterious drink... if it was easy, probably wouldn't be into it & just drink some chocolate milk

by **benm5678** on Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:49 pm

btw, just to throw out some #s... i've been using mainly the weight difference to monitor my roast levels...

250g i used to reduce to around 204g (~81%)

i started to let it go lighter... settled on:
250g reduces to 218g (87%)

as far as temp... i used to be 200 on my alex duetto
then saw a tip here that if your shot pulls perfect timing/volume but still dark/bitter, reduce temp...
so i did that... stopped at 197 F, and loving it...

again, depends on coffee and a ton of other params... but it give an idea on how minor adjustments can make a huge difference.

(oh and of course, use a naked PF if haven't tried yet... if it doesn't flow perfect, sweet shots probably will be hard to come by)

by **vanboom** on Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:06 am

Lately I have been thinking about sweet, bitter, and sour in my espresso, namely how they play off each other. Sour and bitter overpower sweetness - so you might have sweet espresso that is too bitter or too sour.

I find I can reduce sourness by reducing my dose, or brewing at a hotter temperature. If shots are bitter, I can grind a little coarser or run the shot a little bit longer into the blonde, or reduce temperature. If shots are too sweet...well...they are never "too sweet". But a shot will taste sweet when the other flavors are in balance, i.e. if it is not too bitter nor too sour.

So you might try making some moves to reduce sourness and bitterness and see if you can unmask the sweetness you are looking for.
--Don

by **Droshi** on Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:10 am

I have a feeling that with a Manual Cremina you're going to have a much harder time to find your "sweet" spot. I've had my experience with a Pavoni, and now moved onto a Caravel, however I would still suggest the manual lever as a secondary "experimental" machine that gives you lots of room to play around.

For good comfort espresso, I'm sure a decent HX or spring lever would really suit you better. You could however do as suggested (which is cheaper) to find great espresso pulled by a great barista, and then have that in mind when trying to pull your own. But from my experience, it's still tough, especially when you do have that amazing shot on a commercial machine and then very rarely or never get it on your lever.

The Cremina should still pull good espresso and a shot you should enjoy most times, but consistency as you describe is probably going to be very difficult to achieve, especially as your only machine.

I also believe similar that eating a lot of sugar really messes with your definition of "sweet". Many people I know wouldn't describe what I think of as sweet in the same way, but when I add even a small amount of sugar to espresso it becomes a sickening sweet to me. I guess everyone's palate is different and in some ways that doesn't make it wrong or bad, just calibrate your machine for your tastes.

by **mlunn01** on Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:21 pm

I've yet to achieve a shot that I could say tasted sweet. The best that I get from my Silvia/Zip setup for the most part consists of berries, mellow, and usually very complex. When ever I get tired of this taste I just check out this video:

Sadly, I wonder if I will ever be able to achieve such results with my Silvia. Maybe by accident one day...who knows.

by **malachi** on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:44 pm

malachi wrote:I realized that a list of "baristas' baristas" would be useful.
So I've reached out to the various top baristas and asked them for some thoughts.
I'll have a list on my blog before long.

To be honest, I think there are probably less than 5 candidates in the state of California - and none are near you. Given that you have an RV, however.... I'm guessing that you'll be able to get to at least one of the west coast US folks who end up on the list easily enough.

The Baristas' Baristas

by **TheBlacksmith** on Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:28 am

malachi wrote:The Baristas' Baristas

Thanks for the link! Now, to get to some of those spots...


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