Jeff,

Turns out I've read you wrong! You're right, you've got 4 grains of hardness (or whatever, strips are a PITA to read and probably not the most reliable things in the world). As you also observed with the multi-strip, you have 80-125ppm alkalinity.

That's big-time scale water. I think the whole-house softener you're using probably DOES have a mixing valve on it. I mentioned that they're rare, but only in small softeners... they're pretty common on auto-regenerating whole-house softeners. You probably have yours set somewhere below the "maximum softening" setting, right? These systems have that feature because super-soft water can be a bit unpleasant to use day-to-day, particularly if you aren't used to it. However, for the espresso machine, you probably ought to crank that all the way to maximum softening if you wanna prevent/minimize descaling.

I think I've said this elsewhere, but you need to read the Water FAQ a few more times. The parts to focus on are the first few sections on defining water hardness (alkalinity vs. mineral/general hardness), how scale forms, and measuring hardness. If you skim this stuff, it will go right past you and you'll be very confused--I know this firsthand, and you can discover my own embarrassing confusions in some of my oldest posts to this site. A couple of thorough times through the first few sections will really solidify the major concepts at play here, and then you can read Jim's graphs a lot better!

For instance, you could use Jim's graph to observe that with 100 mg/L alkalinity and 70 mg/L hardness, you'll get 60 mg of scale buildup from every liter you pump through the machine, if your boiler's at 125°C, or 1.3 bars. You can punch in Jim's logarithm-heavy calculations and see what you need to be at for 100 mg/L alkalinity and, say, 120°C. By my calculations, you need either -15 mg/L or -7 mg/L hardness, depending on whether you use the normal or high-range alkalinity equation. I take it this means you need to run your softener at max.

There's no way to reduce alkalinity with a cation softener, which is what a salt-based ion exchange softener is. You would need a different filtration solution, or a plumb-in. Ken Fox will tell you, and I think he's probably right, that you're going to get perfectly awesome coffee running 0 mineral hardness and high alkalinity like you'd have with your current softener on max. This is likely your cheapest (and totally fine) bet at this point.

I got some twitting emails from water engineers about the boundary behaviour of the formula; but mostly they were also simplifying the Langelier equation from three to two measurements by removing the actual pH and substituting converted alkalinity.

The equation gets messier for water where carbonates are are higher than calcium, since this is not a regular occurrence except when softening. But the limit behavior is simple: Northern Italy is a big limestone basin and has water with hardness levels around 300 to 500, and alkalinity around 200 to 300 (think Evian on tap). Salt softening is used for almost all hot water uses, certainly on all espresso machines. Scaling does happen, but so slowly that it is not a problem. RO systems are not a cost effective option at this hardness level.

In any case, the iconic Italian espresso is made from salt softened, once very hard water.

So, basically, the cheapest thing for me to do, is make the system soften the water as much as it possibly can, hopefully getting me down to 1grain or less using the hardness test strips... Correct?

Im all but 100% sure my system does have a mix valve. There is an electronic interface on top of the system, which allows you to tailor certain parameters to what you want, and also reads out your current water usage, how much more water you need to use before regeneration, based on your usage, when it will renegerate(2am, 10pm, etc etc), and possible other stuff. I dont have the book handy, its at that house.

What would be a better test for hardness besides a test strip? Is there something else I can buy to verify after I adjust the system? Because, the strips Ive got go from 0grains, to 3grains, and its not super easy to tell them apart. Maybe a TDS meter, and then subtract that alkalinity(~100pmm) from the total to get the hardness? And to that Extent, is the TDS meter which comes with the "ZeroWater" pitchers sufficient for this? Or do I need to shop around for a better one?(suggestions?)


This may be a little over the top, but I might as well ask it anyway... What if I left the whole-home system as it is, and for my machine, put an in-Line softener between it, and the system Ive got. In my head, that would keep the rest of the house's water as it is, and soften the machines water further, keeping alkalinity the same. On the upside, the softener would be changed much less frequently then if it was installed from the mains, no?

The reason for doing this, would be on the off chance that, with my system adjusted to soften to the max, the water doesn't taste like it does currently/I dont like it. So, while I probably won't need to do this at all... I just want to know. . . Would it Work?

And, if you and Ken believe that, then, to me, worst case scenario is that the espresso is the BEST it could be(nominally), but its still damn good... Which is just fine in my book. I have faith in my pallate, but i highly doubt I could taste a difference between "near perfect" espresso, and "perfect" espresso. No, Im sure I wouldn't taste a difference.

Jeff, I live in the Mohawk Valley and have a whole house water softener with a KDF85 filter as part of my system. The KDF85 http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/media_guard_filters.htm is supposed to get the Fe, Chlorine and sulfur out. Since this system has been installed, I no longer get iron deposits in the toilet etc. I assume my well water is harder and more crap in it than yours. A problem I get is hydrogen sulfide rotten egg taste and smell which shouldn't happen with my system. I also have 2 whole house water filters upstream from the water softener, 5 micron and 20 micron filters. What I have found is replacing the 20 micron filter before it needs it gets rid of the H2S smell. The KDF85 may be all you need. Before I got my Vetrano, I had to solve my water problems. I'm not moving anymore except to a nursing home if I outlive my SO.

Marvin

... I dont understand.

I dont have a problem with Iron, Chlorine, or Off taste/Odor. The system I installed takes care of all of that, as well as softening the water. What Im focusing on now, is getting my water to a slower-scaling rate. Taste-Wise, it's great.

By itself, the water tastes great. Brewed coffee also tastes great. Tested by brewing both Vacpot and FrenchPress, with water in my current home, water in my new home, and RO from the grocery store. New home/Current home tasted in-distinguishable.



Nicholas,

after re-reading your post, and the Water FAQ, as well as the Claris Thread.. It looks like(and correct me if Im wrong here), To slow down the scaling rater the water is currently at, but keep the taste the same, is the not worry about carbonate hardness,(because, I cant anyway), and get the General Hardness down as low as I possibly can. IF I read it right, this will give me good tasting coffee water, and minimal scale.

Am I correct in this way of thinking?

.. If so.. What do you think of my idea of adding a separate In-Line softener(cartridge-or-rechargeable) just for my machine, to the existing system. Keeping KH the same, and reducing GH to nothing(or almost nothing), and keeping the rest of the house's water the same as it is now. Thoughts?

Again, this would only be if cranking my exsisting system "down", causes the water to not be to my, and my families, liking. Unlikely, but possible.

Jeff, you've got it right. You can't effect alkalinity with your current system, and if reducing the GH down from 4 grains to near-zero isn't in the cards, it's safest that you add another (small) in-line softening filter. If you're going to do that, and the expense isn't too much for you, the Claris would provide you with the means to reduce your alkalinity and leave back some of the hardness. If not, any salt-based cation exchange system will be just fine, like you say, and you're right that feeding it with mostly-softened water will make it last quite a bit longer before you need to replace it.

Water test kits... this is the cheapest, most convenient one. The Hach tests (1, 2) are better tests, and more expensive. Note that TDS meters are useless with ion exchange water.. alkalinity and hardness aren't the only components of TDS and don't implicitly combine additively, so you can't extrapolate one from the other two arithmetically.

Nicholas,

I very, very much appreciate the help. I was really hoping you would see my post before I went to bed, I kept checking back to see... I had to know if adding another system would work so I could not think about it all night. Thanks man.

I've been thinking about it, and in hoping that doing this would in fact work, I think this is how Im going to set it up. That way I get the water the best I can for my machine, and the rest of the house has water that, ATM, is tasting really great, and will stay that way. Everybody wins that way. Ive got to think about the Non-coffee drinkers in the house as well..(Losers )

So, adding the In-Line system to what Ive got, for my machine, would bring my GH down to near 0ppm, and, obviously, keep KH the same. Little/No Scale, Great tasting coffee, indistinguishable from "designer" or "perfect" coffee water. Correct?

So, if thats correct, this setup would give me: very little scaling, great tasting coffee, an In-Line system which doesnt need frequent recharging/changing, and great tasting water in the rest of the house. IDK about you, but that sounds pretty damn nice to me

I think Im going to have to pick up a Hach Kit in the next week or two, so I can not only get a better grasp over the GH and KH with the current system, but also see where it ends up after putting it through a second, small in-line system as well. It'll be worth the extra money for the Hach kit, even if only for peace of mind.

JmanEspresso wrote:That way I get the water the best I can for my machine, and the rest of the house has water that, ATM, is tasting really great, and will stay that way.

I'm far from being an expert at this, but I bet you'll find that adjusting the whole-house softener to max will not make the water taste any less great than it does now. Jim's taste tests have shown that salt-softened water makes coffee that's very close in quality to ideal water. This suggests that the residual mineral composition of water produced by the typical salt-softening systems could be sufficient for the water to taste very good or even excellent stand-alone.

So far, I've not seen definitive information on exactly what it is in the water that makes it taste good, either stand-alone or in coffee. I'm not sure anyone knows, and the answer is probably specific to each site. The Water FAQ suggests that both general hardness and carbonate hardness play a role in taste, but isn't any more specific than that. It's not clear to me that the salt ions that are substituted for calcium ions by the salt-softener don't have a positive effect on taste, though Jim says they're below the level where you would detect them as a salty taste. I would be willing to bet that high levels of carbonate ions (or possibly other residual minerals not removed by the softening system) have something to do with how the water tastes.

My point is, before expending the money and effort to add another softening system, why not simply crank the whole-house system to the max and taste the water? Remember to flush a few gallons of water through it, then test the water to make sure the general hardness has been reduced below heavy scaling levels. If the max setting still leaves you with too much general hardness to avoid frequent descaling, or the water doesn't taste as good as it did before, then by all means adjust the whole-house softener back to the previous setting and add a second softening system for the espresso machine. Even though you have massive filtration before that system, you should still use a sediment filter after the second softerner to avoid particles from that softener from getting into the espresso machine (or so it's been recommended to me.)

JmanEspresso wrote:I think Im going to have to pick up a Hach Kit in the next week or two, so I can not only get a better grasp over the GH and KH with the current system, but also see where it ends up after putting it through a second, small in-line system as well. It'll be worth the extra money for the Hach kit, even if only for piece of mind.

I agree. Test strips are difficult to interpret and, as Nicholas says, a TDS meter is useless. I use Hach kits, but the much less-expensive Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (API) test kits recommended in the Water FAQ are good, too. They're not quite as accurate as the Hach tests, but far better than strips or a TDS meter. My (unconfirmed) theory is that the API tests require at least one drop of solution to set the baseline, so the reading is always +/- one drop. Hach tests use a separate dye powder to set the baseline, so all drops count. Either brand will give you the information you need.

Peppersass wrote:It's not clear to me that the salt ions that are substituted for calcium ions by the salt-softener don't have a positive effect on taste, though Jim says they're below the level where you would detect them as a salty taste. I would be willing to bet that high levels of carbonate ions (or possibly other residual minerals not removed by the softening system) have something to do with how the water tastes.

In the course of my study of water filtration, I chatted with Skip Finley of Cirqua. According to his explanation, salt water is bad for coffee inasmuch as it changes the way that the water interacts with the cells of the coffee grinds--it tends to cause overextraction. My understanding is that the (usually) tiny amount of salt from ion exchanged water is not enough to make a detectable difference, but it's seems to be a very different chemical than calcium when it comes to the effects on the brewing process.

Jim, I have a question about your taste chart. The X-axis is labeled "PPM TDS". Was that intended to represent combined GH and KH, or does the X-axis actually represent only general hardness?