Psyd wrote:I've stopped using the Mermaid as a ruler. You used to be able to define the bottom end of acceptable... but since their quality had slipped off the end of the scale, and their consistency ain't, they really don't have any mark to measure from.

But the mass market still flocks to them. For many folks, that is the baseline they work from.

FWIW, in Seattle, which after all is the home of the latte, the best cafes serve 6 and 12 ounce lattes and cappas, with the cappas using equal parts foam and milk, and the lattes mostly milk. Double shots are standard in the 6 ounce, and triples in 12 ounce and larger milk drinks, although one can order extra shots.

Personally, I think the distinction is somewhat artificial. In competent milk drinks (I'm excluding the swill), I've seen the whole range from fully white soft foam caps, slowly transforming into dark crema lines in a mostly white cap (a popular pouring style in barista comps), which in turn transitions into white lines on a dark background of the classic latte. In this continuum, where does a cappa stop and a latte start? All one has to do is delay pouring the milk for a few seconds to go from more of a latte to more of a cappa.

From the southeast to Seattle, I've seen all types of foam -- the marshmellow cap as you usually get from Starbucks, to the microfoam at the finer coffee shops. I've also seen this 'sea foam' as Schomer calls it, my least favorite. Personally, I can make marshmellow and the microfoam on my la Pavoni. But I can't (fortunately) make this 'sea foam.' I wonder if it has to do with the power of my steamer?

cannonfodder wrote:But the mass market still flocks to them. For many folks, that is the baseline they work from.

It'll take a while before folks start to realize that Mac and Dunkin are starting to make comparable drinks for cheaper, and it'll take the SCAA (and the BGA) solving the, "What's a cappuccino" problem so they can start to differentiate the 'real' coffee house from the fast-food equivalent. Standardization, certification, and strict enforcement will make the specialty coffee provider stand out from the background noise and start to put them in the forefront as something different and special.
The comfort zone that you speak of (that baseline that allows them to order the same thing they've memorized in their home store, or across town, or across the country) is one of the things that the mass market looks for. If the BGA logo or the smoking cup of the SCAA can begin to identify that comfort zone for them, with the addition of a higher quality, they'll flock there next.
BGA baristi and SCAA members will have to work together to make that happen, but I'm seeing way too much "my way" in the coffee world at the moment to believe that they'll be able to grab the brass ring before the ride stops. There aren't going to be that many more go-rounds.
Home baristi could play a small part in this by agreeing what is what, and describing things in a range or a set parameter, and continuing to get that rumour circulated until it pervades the coffee community. It'll have the additional side benefit of being able to ask for a cappuccino in any decent coffee house across the nation (and next, THE WORLD!) and get the same thing as far as the milk/espresso ratio and prep goes.

This thread is digressing to where to get a cappuccino.

First off "how do you like your cappuccino"

I never have gotten one the way I like it...I am a fan of the thirds.

With the availability of decent home machines under $500...any snob can be a snob at home.

Even one of the best shops in the area, it totally depends on the server what drink you get. I got a latte one day and had ordered a cappuccino. The server told me they were the same...what? I told them they were wrong, my girlfriend called me a coffee snob, I wanted another cup and asked since he didn't know what he was doing that someone else could show him. I guess even if you don't act emotional and keep a clear head, people don't like being told they don't know what they are doing. The owner came out and I explained that I would just like a real cappuccino not a latte. She is a coffee freak beyond my freakness. She apologized, to my girlfriend's disbelief and personally make my drink and told the server they couldn't make a drink until they went back through training and knew what they were talking about.

The owner said they make way more latte's and that most people don't know what a cappuccino is, they really just want a Mocha. Too many gas stations have messed up the US perception of what a cappuccino is. Too many customers let the server get away with making latte's.

I had a similar experience at Intelligentsia one day. I was in town so Jim and I hit Metropolis and Intelli for some espresso and other drinks. I ordered a double shot cappuccino at Intelli, the barista grabbed what had to be a 8-10oz cup and started preparing the portafilter. I politely asked 'is that cup for my drink? I wanted a cappuccino not a latte.' The Barista looked at me puzzled for a moment, I think she was surprised I knew the difference, then she said 'O, I am sorry, you wanted a traditional cappa' and grabbed a 6oz cup and made my drink.

Maybe it is just the American culture, the bigger is better mentality or possibly the mass markets palate is not accustom to the stronger tastes and needs their drink diluted down more than normal. I do not know, but when I visit a cafe I am now in the habit of asking for a traditional cappuccino and usually get a 6oz drink.

FYI, when I make them at home, they tend to me more latte like with slightly less foam and a little more milk, but still 6oz or less.

cannonfodder wrote:I politely asked 'is that cup for my drink?

I find myself asking that question more and more often lately.

cannonfodder wrote:Maybe it is just the American culture, the bigger is better mentality

It's the American culture of popular concept replacing actual fact. It no longer seems to matter what the facts are as long as the popular belief gets airtime. When my local NEWS program ran an ad for their "New Millenium" show in the last week of 1999, I called to suggest that they were a bit early. They're response was that since everyone had the common misconception that it was the new millenium, they'd just decided to go along with it. I asked if I could be transferred to the news desk. She said that I was speaking to the news director. I couldn't speak.

cannonfodder wrote:Maybe it is just the American culture, the bigger is better mentality or ...

In Denmark we have a saying: "If the biggest were the best, they would be easy to recognize"

Even a 6oz Cappa is a little on the largish size for me. I'm used to 5oz'ers that I make at home.
Funny thing is when I was in Europe last year, every Cappuccino I had anywhere (and I do mean anywhere) was exactly the same. It kind of has to be since every place I've been at served everything in Illy Cups, not nevertheless the coffee was very consistent. It was pretty good, not what I serve at home but definitely better than most in our side of the pond.

Niko wrote: every Cappuccino I had anywhere was exactly the same...
...nevertheless the coffee was very consistent. It was pretty good, not what I serve at home but definitely better than most.

Now, when I can say that about my travels here in the US, I'll be a happy camper!

A couple of weeks ago I was visiting my parents in LA and I was desperate for an espresso drink, so I made the mistake of going to the local Starbucks. (I know, I know!) I ordered a double macchiatto, figuring at least then it wouldn't come in a huge cup drowning in milk. The PBTC asked me what size I wanted. I was a bit puzzled, but eventually ordered a short. That only caused further confusion. They finally served me the drink in a "tall" cup. Apparently, Starbucks doesn't train their staff to know that a macchiato is always small, since there's hardly any milk in it.

Beezer wrote:Apparently, Starbucks doesn't train their staff to know that a macchiato is always small, since there's hardly any milk in it.

I usually get the "deer in the headlights" look at ANY Starbucks if I'd order a "double" Americano. So apparently, many PBTCs don't even know what the f' a "double" shot is. I'd eventually have to explain I wanted the "Grande" or somesuch coffee portion, but in a small cup and/or half as much water . Silliness.

If you look at the Starbuck's website, they claim varied caffeine amounts in the Short, Tall, Grande, and Venti sizes of an Americano. Somehow I am doubting that they actually pull single, double, triple, quad as the site might suggest (link).

Beezer wrote: Apparently, Starbucks doesn't train their staff

Ya had me at 'hello'. Apparently, in most places if there isn't a button for it on the cash register, it doesn't exist.
It used to be that Howard Schultz drink was a short, skinny cappuccino. Odd, that turns out to be a traditional cappa! Odder still, it doesn't actually exist on the menu, the baristi (back when they kinda were) just knew that it was one of the things that they made. Lately, though, when there is nothing else, I've gone to order a short double cappa (if for no other reason that it's hard to put too much milk in, and there is half a chance that they think I'm Schultzie so they treat me decent) and their response has been universally, <Simpson's cracking voiced clerk voice>" I'm sorry sir, we don't have any short cups."</Simpson's cracking voiced clerk voice>
To which I respond, dripping with disdain, "You could put it in a tall cup, couldn'cha?"
I don't know why they have to go through this ritual every time, but fortunately I'm not reduced to Starbucks as the last resort very often.

Psyd wrote:Ya had me at 'hello'. Apparently, in most places if there isn't a button for it on the cash register, it doesn't exist.
It used to be that Howard Schultz drink was a short, skinny cappuccino. Odd, that turns out to be a traditional cappa! Odder still, it doesn't actually exist on the menu, the baristi (back when they kinda were) just knew that it was one of the things that they made. Lately, though, when there is nothing else, I've gone to order a short double cappa (if for no other reason that it's hard to put too much milk in, and there is half a chance that they think I'm Schultzie so they treat me decent) and their response has been universally, <Simpson's cracking voiced clerk voice>" I'm sorry sir, we don't have any short cups."</Simpson's cracking voiced clerk voice>
To which I respond, dripping with disdain, "You could put it in a tall cup, couldn'cha?"
I don't know why they have to go through this ritual every time, but fortunately I'm not reduced to Starbucks as the last resort very often.

It's not very often I venture for outside of my own apartment for coffee.

I'm disappointed, every single time, so I just don't do it unless it's for social or other non-coffee reasons.

Jasonian wrote:It's not very often I venture for outside of my own apartment for coffee.

I'm disappointed, every single time, so I just don't do it unless it's for social or other non-coffee reasons.

You know me, I've got an espresso machine and a grinder at every domicile, and a roadbox for when I have to stay somewhere else. Occasionally, the gig's pace is too fast to be able to pack and unpack the kit twice a day, or there isn't enough room for it, or there isn't going to be any electricity and fire isn't an option (although, I took a steamtoy out in the middle of nowhere when we had to take a genny to charge batteries!) Sometimes its crap or nothing. I'll grant you, there have been many times when nothing wins!

Psyd wrote:You know me, I've got an espresso machine and a grinder at every domicile, and a roadbox for when I have to stay somewhere else. Occasionally, the gig's pace is too fast to be able to pack and unpack the kit twice a day, or there isn't enough room for it, or there isn't going to be any electricity and fire isn't an option (although, I took a steamtoy out in the middle of nowhere when we had to take a genny to charge batteries!) Sometimes its crap or nothing. I'll grant you, there have been many times when nothing wins!

If you'll note, I didn't say never.

If I'm in another city where I know there's not really a known good option, I'll sometimes opt for a drip from the green monster, or a french press from the same if there's the time.

jersievers wrote: The server told me they were the same...what?

IMHO the server was partially correct...if customers dont ask me for 'traditional' cappuccino i serve them 6oz cup with double shot of espresso (or 4,5oz cup and single) and the best microfoam i can make...with rosetta or heart on top. If they specifically ask for traditional then obviously i make 1/3,1/3,1/3 drink...therefore, latte and cappa are the same drinks, the only difference is the size of the cup (and yes, i understand that some people are going for thicker microfoam for cappas and pouring just hearts...)

i dont think the baristi today should be following old rules from Italy to make the drinks...microfoam is better tasting, latte art makes the drink look amazing, if you like it old school way then you have to ask for it...

im just surprised this kind of debate still takes place in 2007! every SCAE or SCAA competition i have seen (well, not that many:) presents the cappuccinos this way...

2-czech wrote:...therefore, latte and cappa are the same drinks, the only difference is the size of the cup (and yes, i understand that some people are going for thicker microfoam for cappas and pouring just hearts...)

i dont think the baristi today should be following old rules from Italy to make the drinks...microfoam is better tasting, latte art makes the drink look amazing, if you like it old school way then you have to ask for it...

im just surprised this kind of debate still takes place in 2007! every SCAE or SCAA competition i have seen (well, not that many:) presents the cappuccinos this way...

"BZZZZT! Thank you for playing, we have some nice consolation prizes for you in the back. Tell him what he's won, Johnny!"

While there are those that will make a latte and call it a cappuccino, that doesn't mean that the two are the same. The very reason that there are two names is so that the customer and the barista can distinguish between the two very different drinks. I.e, if I ask for a cappuccino, and the barista pours me a latte, I am not happy because I asked for a capp, and he is not happy because he has to make my drink all over again.
We are not following some old rules form Italy when we use two different word to describe two different things, we are using common sense (or not, as the case may be). If we are going to use the Italian words to describe the Italian drink that we make using Italian-styled techniques, then I'm suggesting that we make what it is. If you went to a bar and asked for a martini and you go onions instead of olives, you'd tell the bartender that he gave you a Gibson, and you'd be right. Technically, it's all the same booze, but if the bartender told you that it's the same because it's all the same booze, where would you get your next drink.
There are already three threads across three different fora discussing the need for espresso lexicon standardization. Remember, if I ask for a cappuccino in your shop, and you pour me a latte, you're going right back to work.

Psyd wrote:There are already three threads across three different fora discussing the need for espresso lexicon standardization. Remember, if I ask for a cappuccino in your shop, and you pour me a latte, you're going right back to work.

cant do nothing than agree, thanks for the reply...i was just a bit angry after several customers complaining about their cappas, asking where is their 1/3 of foam after i poured them perfect cappuccino with microfoam and rosetta. do you 'educate' every single customer about the advantages of the 'new' technique of steaming milk or you just dump the cup and go do it the 'traditional' way? i know customer is always right...but its really difficult when even those in the know (still) dont know:) [/end of rant]

2-czech wrote:cant do nothing than agree, thanks for the reply...i was just a bit angry after several customers complaining about their cappas, asking where is their 1/3 of foam after i poured them perfect cappuccino with microfoam and rosetta. do you 'educate' every single customer about the advantages of the 'new' technique of steaming milk or you just dump the cup and go do it the 'traditional' way? i know customer is always right...but its really difficult when even those in the know (still) dont know:) [/end of rant]

As an ex-pro, I no longer have to deal with any customers other than those in front of me in line, so that problem is solved (at least, for the moment). As a present customer, I have to tell the barista what I want as a recipe, until I establish a rapport. This tends to irk some baristi, but I call it a self inflicted injury. If they can't agree what is called what, then they have to put up with me telling them what I want, and letting them call it whatever they want. If someone decides and everyone agrees, I'll stop.
As a Home Barista, you tell me what you want, and I explain to you what you said. If what I tell you sounds like what you want, away we go!