I've been trying to give as much as I take on these forums. Today I need some help.

I went through a half a pound of beans this morning, trying to get some sense for what I'm doing wrong.

Mostly I experimented with different grinds and doses. I just can't get any consistency. One shot is a gusher, the next clogs the machine, but then starts channeling before I know it.

Some of shots seems to start well, but start gushing around 10-15 sec. Others seem to be channeling right from the word go. I'm still waiting for a bottomless PF, so I can't tell where they're channeling.

I know many of you aren't fans of post-mortem puckology, but the aftermath is very inconsistent. Some pucks are dry with very little disturbance from the grouphead. Others are soupy with noticeable holes through them.

My suspicion is that at least some of the channeling is caused by the ridge around the grouphead, so I've been dosing lower to try and leave enough headspace so that doesn't happen. And yet, when I leave headspace, I seem to get the gushers with a soupy puck.

I'm running out of beans and patience (all this caffeine doesn't help either)

Thanks.

Hi - all I can say is, it takes a lot of practice to be consistent. Although I have owned my machine for years, I only really began working on my technique about 6 months ago, when I discovered this site. Now, I feel pretty good about my consistency and my ability to troubleshoot. Consider all of your actions - grind, distribution (have you tried the WDT?), dose weight, tamping, coffee freshness, etc. before looking at other factors.

The other thing, and I hate to say it given your moniker, but your grinder probably isn't good enough. I had an old Virtuoso that I modded for espresso, and got similar results - choking or gushing. After 6 years it broke, I bought a new one, it was even less consistent. That's when I got a SJ off ebay for $325, and eliminated the grinder as a problem (now it's back on me - did I adjust it properly?) Assuming you don't want to drop a few hundred dollars on a grinder, perhaps it's time to try spending a little money on a hand grinder. I have not dealt with them, but Orphan Espresso apparently specializes in hand grinders. If you decide to consider this route, there are several hand grinder users here on HB.

Enjoy your experience, James

Stop fixating on "channeling".
As mentioned - your grinder is a large part of the problem.
You need to focus on consistency in your prep to have consistency in the results. If the grind is not consistent, the results will not be. If your dose is not consistent, the results will not be. If distribution is not consistent, the results will not be. If brew temp is not consistent, the results will not be.
You get the idea.
The above list goes on and on (Illy famously estimated more than 100 variables involved in a cup of espresso).

Reduce the number of variables by transforming as many as possible into constants.

Repeated adjustment of the grinder can have you chasing your tail as there are a significant number of old grinds remaining that end up in the next shot.

If you don't have a 0.1g scale, obtaining one should be next.

Are you loading the grinder per shot or do you have ¼+# beans in the hopper? Hopefully you have good coffee and are not using the grinder for anything but espresso.

Adjust the grinder a couple of clicks from finest, grind a few grams and discard. Leave it there until you've determined your dose limits below.

Assuming you're doing doubles, dose the basket with 15g. Give a gentle side to side shake and LEVEL tamp with moderate [ < 10# ] force.

Lock in and remove the PF to see if you are contacting the puck. If the puck surfaces is torn up, you need a lower dose.

Assuming it's OK, pull the shot into a measured container and see how much you get in 30s. Hopefully you are close to 60ml. If a lot more, then you need more coffee if you are not yet contacting the screen. If a lot less, then you can grind a bit coarser. Grind and discard a couple of grams of coffee when changing the grind. It saves coffee in the long run.

I'm guessing, but I don't think the machine has an OPV, so you are brewing at elevated pressures.

Thanks folks.

I keep telling myself that I'm the problem, not the grinder, which is usually, but not always the case.

Address7 wrote: The other thing, and I hate to say it given your moniker, but your grinder probably isn't good enough.

I bought the grinder a little over a month ago. Too late to return it, presumably, but too soon to upgrade. If it's the grinder, I'm willing to settle with it for a year or more, and just accept poor results until I can afford/justify an upgrade. (Just spent $1,000 on a custom fitted flight case for my guitar). I have to say, I feel really duped. The other forum I frequent recommended the Virtuoso as a great grinder for my usage, and even put it up there with a Rocky. Wish I would have found this forum first.

Address7 wrote: perhaps it's time to try spending a little money on a hand grinder. I have not dealt with them, but Orphan Espresso apparently specializes in hand grinders. If you decide to consider this route, there are several hand grinder users here on HB.

I've thought of a hand grinder, and have even suggested that route to a few other newbies on here (feel a little hypocritcal giving advice, given the circumstances ). That may be the next step.

Address7 wrote: Consider all of your actions - grind, distribution (have you tried the WDT?), dose weight, tamping, coffee freshness, etc. before looking at other factors.

I've been doing WDT, NSEW. Bought a gram scale (although only 1 gram, not .1g. Doh!) I've been trying to keep everything constant, and am consciously changing the dose and grind setting. Whenever I change settings, I run a few grams through the grinder to make sure all the grinds are from the same setting.

So, I feel it's either:

1. The grouphead scoring the puck.
2. The grinder is woefully inadequate.
3. Some variable in my technique that I'm unconsciously changing.
4. Or worse, all three.

The trouble is, something's wrong, and something needs to change. I just don't know how to isolate which variable(s ?) is at fault and experiment with it/them.

Thanks for your help/ patience. Sigh!

Don't over think it.

The grinder probably won't set closer than about 5 seconds on a click. Get it roughly right, then leave it be. Wait for the bottomless to arrive, and burn through a pound of coffee to get your -- load, distribute, level, tamp -- muscle memory right.

Check for consistent dosing by feeling how deep the tamper has gone in after you've pressed down. Do this with your fingertips to the edge of the basket. I know it's too late by then to do anything but start over, but that is the best place to do a final check prior to the shot. If you find you aren't consistent on dose using an eyeballing or timing method, get a 0.1 gram scale. If you find you do dose consistently (by whatever technique), congratulations.

brokemusician77 wrote:2. The grinder is woefully inadequate.

It's no world beater, but it is adequate if everything else is on the up and up. [ I had two. Too much static, although other report no problem ]

You can fudge the setting by holding the hopper between clicks for a bit better than 5s resolution.

If using a 1g scale add coffee slowly to your tared PF until the count just ticks to your desired value. Some 1g scales are next to worthless reading 98 100 or 102 with a 100g calibration weight.

Thanks everyone.

I think I just need to walk away from this for awhile (or just drink whatever I get and relax a bit).

k

I could be totally wrong, but you might want to check the beans you're using. I usually got a away with most beans on my MDF (at least 10 secs between steps) but one day I got these fabulous brazil beans that were completely between steps, one step a gusher the next a choker. Pissed me considerably off so I made it stepless Anyways, you might want to check other beans. I'm assuming you're using freshly roasted beans?

Otherwise, I found it easiest to begin with to stick with everything the same (beans, grind, tamp) except for dosage (usually just one roughly correct grind setting for the MDF anyways...). Strangely I get more channeling on a smaller dosage (~14g), but generally that's when the beans are getting older (10 days+), so I guess that's normal.

cafeIKE wrote:Are you loading the grinder per shot or do you have ¼+# beans in the hopper?

Ian raises a good question here that I think you might have missed.

Have you tried loading up the hopper? The value of this depends on the grinder, but I think it might increase your consistency with the Virtuoso.

Also, you didn't mention what dose you are shooting for. I think my Gaggia used to like around 15g - 16g the best.

Thanks.

I've tried both. Originally, I was weighing whole beans then grinding directly into the PF, WDT, level, tamp. Lock and load. (I'd read about the whole popcorning issue.)

Then I tried filling the hopper and grinding into PF, WDT, level, tamp, brew. I tried this with a "tap, tap, tap" on the counter about 7 times to level before tamping, which actually improves things.

Today I did full hopper, ground into the bin, WDT, then poured the grounds into the PF and weighed. then "tap, tap, tap" then tamp and brew.

I've tried 14, 15, & 16g doses.

Pulled a shot this afternoon that turned out pretty nice. 15g. The spent puck looked pretty good (I know, it doesn't matter). All in all one of my better shots.

I fret about all this far too much, I fear. I usually only drink Lattes, but if the shots were better, I'd start drinking them straight (it'd save on milk costs. 3-4 Lattes a day starts to add up in that department.)

IF necessary, WDT should occur in the basket. [ IIRC, the Virtuoso was not particularly clumpy with the coffees I used. ]

Yeah. It doesn't clump too badly when I grind into the container. It seems like the grounds always group together a little bit. I can't really tell which clumps will cause problems, and which ones will fall apart when I level/tamp.

I figured it doesn't hurt to stir the grounds before dumping them into the PF.

brokemusician77 wrote:I usually only drink Lattes, but if the shots were better, I'd start drinking them straight (it'd save on milk costs. 3-4 Lattes a day starts to add up in that department.)

My morning drink is a cappuccino, which only requires 4 oz of milk. That's 32 cappuccinos per gallon of milk. Last year I switched from organic back to regular whole milk after realizing the non-organic tastes better steamed. (The organic milk available here is almost all ultra-pasteurized, probably the reason for the inferior taste.)

Or you can reduce milk costs even further by doing macchiatos and americanos.

I read somewhere that in Italy, you can only drink Capp's until 10 am. After that, it's espresso all day, apparently. That's sort of what I'm working toward (although I don't have an Italian bone in my body).

Step back, relax. Dont overcomplicated things. Weigh your dose (hope you are using a 0.1 gram scale) keep the dose within 0.2 grams. Give the coffee 4 days before you start using it (what roaster and blend are you using?). Grind, dump it into your basket, just use your finger or a straight edge to level off the basket, tamp. Dont spin, gyrate, tap, knock, chant, just put your tamper into the basket and push down keeping the tamper level. Tamp hard, tamp soft, doesn't matter just tamp the same every time. Do whatever you need for your temperature management and pull your shot. If it is fast, grind a notch finer but keep everything else the same. If that shot is still fast, grind another notch finer but change nothing else. Once you are close, then you can try varying your dose by 0.5 grams, that is enough to make a difference, which is why it is so important that you use a 0.1 gram scale. Dont worry to much about tweaking dose for now, just get things consistent then play with the variables to tweak taste. Dont sweat it, it is just coffee but it does take time, practice and patience.

I understand where you are coming from. All I can say is if you really want to get to drinking multiple straight shots a day, and enjoying them, it is going to take some serious beans, a serious grinder, and some serious practice, your shooter is capable. It was frustrating to me to read posts of things like deliciously sweet with notes of honeyed fig and dried pomegranate with a hint of Belgian chocolate. The shot pulled 55ml, in 27 seconds, from 14grams in a double basket at 200.5 f. While I was doing my best to produce something that didn't gush blonde in 12 seconds or choke to barely a drip after 25 seconds, something that when drunk straight could be held in my mouth without engaging my gag reflex. I for one could not safely consume my espresso straight for almost a year.

I have certainly been guilty of over obsessing on the results of my efforts. And working from home with just me and the machine all day only made it worse. Two tips I read on HB long after it would have done me any good, were do not make an adversarial relationship with your gear and your espresso, and designate days off for press pot or other brewing methods. I think these are both very sound and wise bits of advice, especially to someone who is not enjoying the experience as much as they were when they got started.

As for the list of possible issues, it is probably not 1, but possibly a combination of 2 and 3. For me, scoring the puck with the dispersion block is out. I have a Classic and naked pf, while I see the ring around the puck you are referring to, I see it when my shots show no sign of channeling, so I consider it a "puck is compost" issue.
The soupy puck to solid puck from shot to shot issue is a different story. This to me is not a "puck is compost" issue but rather a dose or grind inconsistency indicator.
One thing I see missing in the list is the coffee. What coffee are you using, where did it come from, and when was it roasted?

If you are obsessing on the look of the stream and its correlation to the flavor in the cup, I am afraid a naked pf is only going to increase your frustration. Get it for fun but don't get it for evaluation.

Something I think is often overlooked or understated is the amount of time many have spent building the knowledge and evaluation skills necessary to produce consistently enjoyable straight espresso. If this were not the case there would be no such thing as a "help I just got my new (insert expensive machine combination of choice) and my shots taste bad" posts.

Try to relax and enjoy the ride.



Gus

Thanks Gus,

I think I remember reading some of your posts on such frustration. Particularly over the descriptions of different flavor profiles.

Was there any one thing that you did that seemed to help more than anything? The grinder perhaps?

I read somewhere on another post that it's a good idea to keep a log book. That might help me keep track of what I'm doing, what's working, and what's not.

Right now I feel like I'm getting worse, not better. I'm wishing I could take a few steps back and start from there again. Trouble is, I don't know what I was doing then that worked so much better.

Hey,

As stated, Breathe. Ok. Now.. If you dont enjoy it, whats the point? I can see you WANT to enjoy things, so dont worry.. patience will prevail....eventually. I made espresso with a delonghi and a hand grinder for a couple months, and it was drinkable straight, but not after a LOT of trials and tribulations, and maybe a broken shot glass here and there. So, it is possible.


Where do you get your coffee beans? The symptoms you describe, make me think the beans are stale. Unless you are roasting them yourself, or buying from a local roaster, or ordering online from an artisan roaster, then, well, you're buying stale beans. ANYthing you find in a supermarket, or at Starbucks/DD, Caribou coffee, ALLL of these, are stale. A good indicator is when, "Best Before" is stamped on the bag, as it is usually 6 months from now. What you need, is the bag to read, "Roasted On-"..And the date should be about 5 days earlier, MAX. Beans are stale in 14 days. You could own a La Marzocco Mistral and a Malhkoenig K30 grinder, with PID controls, NPFs, Scace Devices, etc etc.. If the beans arent fresh, NO equipment will produce espresso.

IF you're not getting fresh beans, there are plenty of places online where you can order beans from. MY personal faves, are Gimme! Coffee, and Coffee Klatch. But there is also many other places.


Of course, if you already ARE using fresh beans, from a local roaster, roasted days before, then well.. I believe I may be quite the dunce, and I will surely try to insert my incredibly large foot, into my even bigger mouth

Jeff