Psyd wrote:I think that the terms are liberally (and somewhat glibly) applied, too, but I think that that evolved from baristas trying new things and needing some new terms to describe how they were arriving at their results. "Hey, How'd you do that! ?!" "I just overfilled the basket till it restricted the flow a bit more and took a bit longer to pull the shot."
"Hey, use Franco's 'restricted' technique, it's great."
"What's this? It's good!"
"That's a 'restricted' shot."
"Hey, make me one of those 'restricted' shots'"
"Franco, another 'restricted', please"

That is no problem if you're in Franco's bar. It IS a problem if Franco is in Italy and you're in Tucson. Not only is it a pain in the ass, but the resulting confusion is stifling the development of the espresso culinary art. IMHO.

RapidCoffee wrote:But flow rates/shot timings really ought to be part of the definitions, not just brew ratios.

In general, I prefer regular espressos at 25-30 secs. For ristrettos I often go a few seconds more. That's about all I can say. How about you?

AndyS wrote:In general, I prefer regular espressos at 25-30 secs. For ristrettos I often go a few seconds more. That's about all I can say. How about you?

That sounds about right. And lungos (which I don't make, at least not intentionally ), a few seconds less.

Again, no intent to hijack this discussion away from brew ratios. Thanks for taking the time to put the chart together.
________
John

When I make a ristretto, I keep the same timing I normally use for a 'standard' double but reduce the normal volume depending on the coffee. So if blend x works best with an 18 gram dose, 28 second extract at 1.75oz, my ristretto would be (in general terms) 18 gram dose, 28 second extract at 1-1.25 oz as a general guideline. Then adjust based on taste.

AndyS wrote:That is no problem if you're in Franco's bar. It IS a problem if Franco is in Italy and you're in Tucson. Not only is it a pain in the ass, but the resulting confusion is stifling the development of the espresso culinary art. IMHO.

I meant that conversation as to how the term got started (purely artist's conjecture, mind you...) not as what the term is supposed to mean. It is very probable that this is very similar to the actual birth of a ristretto, though, as this is how things do. So, a ristretto, in this theoretical example, would be the technique that Franco stumbled upon or rushed into, not a given extraction or something 'other than an espresso' but a variation in technique. By using the technique, instead of the result, I can get instructions from Franco over the phone as to how he came up with this new wonderful thing, and it requires no new gadget, kit, or chart.

When I can remember, I've been measuring the weight and approximating the volume of my daily espressos. Sorry, I didn't write down the figures, but I can offer from memory some general observations.

The majority of the extractions fell in the low-high range of 17-20 dry coffee grams / 17-25 beverage grams / 1.3-1.6 ounces (including crema). Although all of the espressos were below two ounces, the 22+ beverage grams drinks had the profile evoking my definition of a "true double" and those at 17 grams and below had distinct ristretto-esque characteristics.

One lesson I learned from weighing: The weight of the espresso correlates more readily with the flavor profile than the final volume. Lately I've been thinking about how to combine the actual beverage weight and Al's Rule. It may be a bit extreme to pull the espresso with the cup sitting on a 0.1 accuracy gram scale and the timer going... but I'm tempted.

andyS wrote:
(Click above to see larger image)

HB wrote:When I can remember, I've been measuring the weight and approximating the volume of my daily espressos. Sorry, I didn't write down the figures, but I can offer from memory some general observations.

Dan, you're the only one who's given me any data at all. Thanks!

HB wrote:The majority of the extractions fell in the low-high range of 17-20 dry coffee grams / 17-25 beverage grams / 1.3-1.6 ounces (including crema). Although all of the espressos were below two ounces, the 22+ beverage grams drinks had the profile evoking my definition of a "true double" and those at 17 grams and below had distinct ristretto-esque characteristics.

So here's how I see your data:
Average dose is 18.5 grams
18.5 gram dose / 22 gram beverage = 84% brewing ratio
18.5 gram dose / 17 gram beverage = 106% brewing ratio

In contrast, lately I've been brewing shots like this:
15 gram dose / 30 gram beverage = 50% brewing ratio

My shots are obviously less concentrated (less ristretto) than yours. To me, they taste and feel like "traditional doubles."

But aside from mere semantics, this is what is interesting to me: even though we're starting with different doses, we can make reasonably accurate comparisons between your shots and mine to compare flavors. Tomorrow I'll try some shots using my dose (15 grams) and your 84% brewing ratio (which should yield ~18 gram beverages) and see if they begin to taste like "traditional doubles."

HB wrote:One lesson I learned from weighing: The weight of the espresso correlates more readily with the flavor profile than the final volume.

Then you really get what I'm trying to say...although since the dose can change, I'd be REALLY tickled if you said "the brewing ratio correlates more readily with the flavor profile than the final volume."

HB wrote:Lately I've been thinking about how to combine the actual beverage weight and Al's Rule. It may be a bit extreme to pull the espresso with the cup sitting on a 0.1 accuracy gram scale and the timer going... but I'm tempted.

Yeah, that's EXTREME, all right. Of course on an automatic machine, beverage weight is fairly reproducible. So you can get very close to a given target weight without the absurdity of having to pull with the cup on a scale. The automatic allows you to geek out while still maintaining self-respect.

AndyS wrote:So here's how I see your data:
Average dose is 18.5 grams
18.5 gram dose / 22 gram beverage = 84% brewing ratio
18.5 gram dose / 17 gram beverage = 106% brewing ratio

In contrast, lately I've been brewing shots like this:
15 gram dose / 30 gram beverage = 50% brewing ratio

My shots are obviously less concentrated (less ristretto) than yours. To me, they taste and feel like "traditional doubles."

You're right, my lowest brewing ratio espressos were in the 60% range. Those that were lower lacked the dense crema and heavy body I like, though some were still quite enjoyable. An espresso blend like Black Cat, for example, showed its stuff in the 100% range and became less interesting in the 50% range. More citrusy Northern Italian blends like Dark Star from Rocket Coffee (which despite its name is actually medium roasted) appealed to me around a 60% brewing ratio.

Thanks Andy for the idea. While we may quibble about the definition of a "true double," at least we have a way of accurately speaking about the brew concentration that others can reproduce. It's easy to be "fooled" into producing a ristretto because of high crema production. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but by volume, an espresso may look like a double when in fact it's a ristretto in crema's clothing.

AndyS wrote:Of course on an automatic machine, beverage weight is fairly reproducible. So you can get very close to a given target weight without the absurdity of having to pull with the cup on a scale. The automatic allows you to geek out while still maintaining self-respect.

Funny how I never thought of using volumetric dosing for that... you know, dosing the volume. I always thought of them as "inattention safety devices."

HB wrote: While we may quibble about the definition of a "true double," at least we have a way of accurately speaking about the brew concentration that others can reproduce. It's easy to be "fooled" into producing a ristretto because of high crema production.

Exactly!

Today I pulled shots at various brewing ratios using my homeroasted coffee. I find I have to get pretty close to a 50% brew ratio (15g dry yielding 30g wet) before it feels like a "traditional double" to me. But then there's not much latitude: I can't pull the shots much higher in volume before they get way too thin and flabby.

Again, it's not about drawing a line in the sand that separates a "true espresso" from a "true ristretto." That will always remain a matter of taste (although some generally accepted guidelines might be helpful).

What this brewing ratio thing is about is understanding and communicating the parameters that we use to produce the shots we like.

Andy, thanks for sharing the chart. Although an obsessive hobbiest in whatever area of interest I find myself, with espresso I've come to look for references along the way; essentially starting points. With food and beverage for instance, and to a lesser degree baking, the phrase "....season to taste" always comes to mind. It gives me license to experiment. But before the experimentation, I need a starting point. You've really done a nice job here.

Your chart posting got me to think about a recent visit to an espresso cafe in Washington state. On a recent trip to Seattle I visited with David Schomer at his new Yale St. espresso cafe. On the menu board, at the top under CAPPUCCINOS, they have written, and I'll paraphrase here...... ALL CAPPUCCINOS ARE RISTRETTO MACHIATTOS. I should call them up again and have them clarify that for me. But what I can tell you is that after that trip a few months back, and tasting their RM, I came home with validation that my slow migration to shortening my shots before the blonding, and reducing my milk and foam even more, was essentially what David Schomer had done! Understand that I started out a year ago using "The Golden Rule" as distributed by Wholelattelove. Again, it was a starting point. As soon as I get my espresso bar setup again here at the new place, I'm going to take your chart, which I've printed and laminated, and see how it "quantitatively" parallels what I've been doing.

I travel quite a bit on business, and in what time I can sneak in, visit any coffee related suppliers, wholesalers, repair shops and retailers. What I've found is that save for some industry types, a few Third Wave espresso cafes and trained barista-types in the US and around the world, there's a shockingly few people, even in the espresso business, that have an understanding of specialty coffee, or coffee in general. (I never assume someone I'm speaking with understands that Juan Valdez doesn't ship roasted and ground coffee to the US for packaging in cans that make a sucking sound when you open them!?)

Again, this may seem obsessive to some, but if placed within the context of an overall learning package, I think it's a vital learning tool and reference. I'd like to see your chart applied in a training video; maybe picking 3 to 5 drink combinations? With video posting becoming more and more popular, your chart could make for a great advanced training element.

Best, Al

-------------My Growing Espresso Video Collection from Brasil---------
Espresso Cafes of Brasil, Santo Grao, Sao Paulo
Espresso Cafes of Brasil, Suplicy-Jardins District, Sao Paulo
Cupping Coffee in Sul de Minas at a Coffee Cooperative Lab
La Spaziale S1 temporary setup
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