Hi All

I need some help!! I am a newbie and am having a very difficult time trying to extract a good shot. I have gone through lots of beans. I am trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. I see varying opinions on % of brewed weight to dose weight. I have heard 1.5 times the dose weight (18 g to 27 g) and also 50% brewed weight to dose (18 g to 36 g). I am trying to keep as consistent as possible (18g dose, 26-27 sec brew time). I can't seem to pull consistent shots that aren't overly sour or bitter. I don't think I got one decent shot out of my last 3/4 lb bag.

I am using a Rancilio Silvia and Rocky grinder. Beans are fresh.

The roaster has provided general brewing recommendations on their site- see below. Doesn't seem to match either 1.5 /50% for dose to brew weight.

Dose: 18-22 grams
Brew Water Temp: 199-201 F / 93-94 C
Brew Time: 25-30 seconds
Brewed Volume/Weight: 1.5-1.75 oz / 30-35 grams

I am not sure what else to do in order to get some consistency or for that matter 1 good pull.

Thank you!!

I beat my head against the wall for 6 weeks with a Rocky before I saw the light and bought a good grinder. Chalk that up to an expensive learning mistake. They're built like a tank and probably make a good brew grinder, but not fit for espresso. If you don't have a naked PF, I'd recommend getting one and you will quickly see the problems. I could NOT get any kind of consistency with a Rocky.

Start with two balls. Once you've mastered them, then you can start juggling. Same goes for coffee. If you start out worrying about every single variable you are bound to fail every time.

Start with the grounds as your first variable. Get the shot time down to 25-30 seconds.
Next is the dose size. Adjust the dose size up and down and see how it affects your shot.
Then the tamp. As you move on to each variable, you begin to learn how they work in unison with each other. It really is trial and error. There's no getting around it if you're starting out.

While it always helps to have better equipment starting out, I also realize not everyone can afford it or are ready to make the commitment. Been there myself.

Does your Silvia have a PID , if not then then the temp management on your Silvia is not your friend ....

Welcome fellow canuck. A number of things can contribute to inconsistency. Your machine and grinder could be playing a role. Or, most likely, it's a combination of your equipment itself, and how you're using your equipment, along with some extraction problems.

Some questions so we can help you:

1. Does your Silvia have a PID for temperature control? (if not, you'll need to temperature surf to get closer to ideal brew temp, although this won't give you consistently on target temps)

2. Do you have a digital scale with 0.1g sensitivity? If not, getting one will keep your dose consistent.

3. Do you have a naked portafilter?

4. Your rocky is also a limitation. It has wide steps between grind settings. This mean you need to up dose and down dose, in addition to changing the grind setting. (ok this wasn't a question, just a statement)

5. What beans from what roaster are you using? If it's not a forgiving bean/blend, this can make life difficult for a newbie. I suggest starting with a forgiving, comfort espresso blend that's easier to work with. (I can recommend places in Toronto area to get beans)

Let us know about the above and we can troubleshoot your issues.
Cheers!

When I started with my Silvia (my first espresso machine), I had a lot of trouble getting consistent shots.
After installing a PID, weighing my dose accurately, getting a naked portafilter, and using that to improve my tamping technique, my consistency improved considerably.

In addition to the above, I would also:

• Let the machine warm up thoroughly (at least 45 minutes) before making a shot.
  Don't overdose. (With the stock Silvia double basket, I couldn't even get a 16 gram dose if I remember correctly).
  Don't treat other peoples recommendations as gospel. They may be a good starting point, but your taste could be very different to theirs.
  Only change one variable at a time.

Alan

canuckcoffeeguy wrote:Welcome fellow canuck. A number of things can contribute to inconsistency. Your machine and grinder could be playing a role. Or, most likely, it's a combination of your equipment itself, and how you're using your equipment, along with some extraction problems.

Some questions so we can help you:

1. Does your Silvia have a PID for temperature control? (if not, you'll need to temperature surf to get closer to ideal brew temp, although this won't give you consistently on target temps)

2. Do you have a digital scale with 0.1g sensitivity? If not, getting one will keep your dose consistent.

3. Do you have a naked portafilter?

4. Your rocky is also a limitation. It has wide steps between grind settings. This mean you need to up dose and down dose, in addition to changing the grind setting. (ok this wasn't a question, just a statement)

5. What beans from what roaster are you using? If it's not a forgiving bean/blend, this can make life difficult for a newbie. I suggest starting with a forgiving, comfort espresso blend that's easier to work with. (I can recommend places in Toronto area to get beans)

Let us know about the above and we can troubleshoot your issues.
Cheers!

It's too bad to hear the negative opinions toward the Silvia/Rocky combo. I bought the machine only a couple of months ago and it seemed to get very good reviews for the price point. I hope I can make a decent espresso with a $1,000 worth of equipment.

1) No PID. Is there somewhere in GTA I can have it installed? Do you know what it typically costs? I leave the machine on for at least 30 min (typically longer) and cycle the machine before pulling my first shot.

2)I just bought a digital scale with 0.1 sensitivity. I was previously pouring shots to 25-27 sec (18 g dose) and visually assessing based on volume. Hasn't been working out for me. I now understand I much better off going by shot weight. This was the reason for my initial post. What should the brewed weight be of 18 g dose? Can I keep 18 g dose as a constant and adjust grind/tamp to achieve correct brewed time/weight?

3). Yes. unless I am way off with dose/grind I have been pretty good (i think) with the leveling and tamping. typically starts as 2-3 streams and comes together within first few seconds of extraction. I am sure I need to be more consistent with tamp weight but that also is a factor of dose g/grind.

4). I understand- this probably doesn't help when I am trying to maintain as many consistencies as possible. This morning I pulled 32 g shot out of 18 g dose in 28 sec. flavour was still not balanced. Do I really have to pull an absolute perfect shot to get a decent espresso?

5) I accept this has probably been part of my issue and my own fault. I have been buying beans from a variety of local roasters. I have starting buying Farmer's Collective Organic Espresso from Social Coffee. They get good reviews and deliver. My goal is to stick with this blend until I get the hang of it. Hopefully they will still be producing it for a few years!

ajf wrote:When I started with my Silvia (my first espresso machine), I had a lot of trouble getting consistent shots.
After installing a PID, weighing my dose accurately, getting a naked portafilter, and using that to improve my tamping technique, my consistency improved considerably.

In addition to the above, I would also:

• Let the machine warm up thoroughly (at least 45 minutes) before making a shot.
  Don't overdose. (With the stock Silvia double basket, I couldn't even get a 16 gram dose if I remember correctly).
  Don't treat other peoples recommendations as gospel. They may be a good starting point, but your taste could be very different to theirs.
  Only change one variable at a time.

Alan

Thanks for the input. Seems like a PID should come pre-installed on these machines.

I don't seem to have any issue at 18 g. I may not being leaving enough headroom but don't have any indication that the basket is too full.

Very true. I have been driving myself a little crazy with trial & error and trying to make sense of everyone's opinions. I am just doubting my ability to figure this out on my own!

LandonRoscoe wrote:It's too bad to hear the negative opinions toward the Silvia/Rocky combo. I bought the machine only a couple of months ago and it seemed to get very good reviews for the price point. I hope I can make a decent espresso with a $1,000 worth of equipment.

1) No PID. Is there somewhere in GTA I can have it installed? Do you know what it typically costs? I leave the machine on for at least 30 min (typically longer) and cycle the machine before pulling my first shot.

2)I just bought a digital scale with 0.1 sensitivity. I was previously pouring shots to 25-27 sec (18 g dose) and visually assessing based on volume. Hasn't been working out for me. I now understand I much better off going by shot weight. This was the reason for my initial post. What should the brewed weight be of 18 g dose? Can I keep 18 g dose as a constant and adjust grind/tamp to achieve correct brewed time/weight?

3). Yes. unless I am way off with dose/grind I have been pretty good (i think) with the leveling and tamping. typically starts as 2-3 streams and comes together within first few seconds of extraction. I am sure I need to be more consistent with tamp weight but that also is a factor of dose g/grind.

4). I understand- this probably doesn't help when I am trying to maintain as many consistencies as possible. This morning I pulled 32 g shot out of 18 g dose in 28 sec. flavour was still not balanced. Do I really have to pull an absolute perfect shot to get a decent espresso?

5) I accept this has probably been part of my issue and my own fault. I have been buying beans from a variety of local roasters. I have starting buying Farmer's Collective Organic Espresso from Social Coffee. They get good reviews and deliver. My goal is to stick with this blend until I get the hang of it. Hopefully they will still be producing it for a few years!

The good news is there's still hope. The current opinions of the Rocky/Siliva are not so much negative, they're just a reflection of how much home espresso equipment has changed over the last 15 years. Back then, the Silvia and Rocky were the bees knees (to borrow a British expression). But many of the glowing reviews you've seen date back 10 years or more.

Nowadays, the Silvia is considered rather overpriced for what you get. Since there are other SBDUs with PIDs (CC1, Quickmill Silvano etc.) that offer more bang for the buck. And similarly with the Rocky, only stepless(or near stepless )grinders are recommended now for espresso. So both the Rocky and Silvia are getting long in the tooth.

However, that being said - the Siliva is considered to be durable with good build quality. It just hasn't changed much in many years. And the biggest drawbacks of SBDUs - the lack of temperature stability and the wait time switching from brew & steam mode - remains a problem with the Silvia. Fortunately, there's more information online about the Silvia, and how to maximize its potential, than virtually any other espresso machine.

So, while it seems like you've got a good grasp of what you need to do, there are additional things you can do to help.

You'll need to learn how to temperature surf the Silvia, unless you get a PID installed. Not sure about the exact pricing, but a PID installed would cost another $200.00 at least. Unless you can do it yourself. I have no experience with this or SBDUs in general. Also, this would put your investment even higher.

Read this HB review of the Siliva from 2013. Dan posted Mark Prince's video on temp surfing the Silvia. This should help you get better brew temps. Although, you'll never get consistently spot-on temps with a non-PID SBDU. But this should help a lot. As a rule of thumb, too hot equals bitter, and too cool equals sour.
Rancilio Silvia Review

Overextraction and underextraction could also be part of your problem. Underextraction can also lead to sourness, and overextraction bitterness. Please post a video of your extractions to see how it pours. But your stated brew ratios seem fine. But that doesn't show us anything about how it tastes.

As for the Rocky, you'll have to increase or decrease dose a bit, along with a change in grind settings, to achieve the right flowrate. You just don't have the ability to make small incremental changes that a stepless grinder offers.

Not sure what the stock Silvia basket can accommodate in terms of a dose. But the above HB thread discusses that as well. You might need to get an aftermarket basket.

As for Social Coffee and Tea. They're a pretty good and respected roaster. I haven't tried their organic espresso blend, but I have tried the People's Daily and some other offerings. Maybe give the People's Daily a try.

With some workarounds, and some persistence, you should be able to make some decent espresso with your setup. It just might take time, patience and perseverance.

I'm beginning to become a Silvia hater, I had one for 11 months.. I wasn't happy with it, even with a PID. Can you pull good shots with the Silvia? Sure, if you can deal with her caveats (mainly around the OPV and PID.. but I found adding a PID just added another variable that was more annoying because finding the correct offset was a pain). I suppose you could get something decent out of the Rocky if you did WDT. Also, I see talks of the stock basket.. are you using the stock Rancilio basket? Frankly, it sucks. I recommend a VST/La Marzocco double basket, or if you want to save some money the EspressoParts HQ series is great too. (I have the HQ-14 gram ridgeless.. only $7) If you are looking for a bottomless portafilter, EspressoParts sells a non branded La Marzocco for $50.. worked perfectly in my Silvia. To check for headroom, dose into the PF place a quarter in the center of the puck, insert it into the group then take it back out. If you can see the indentation of the coin you are dosing slightly too much.. keep repeating until you no longer see it. IIRC the stock Silvia basket could take 12-15 maybe.