First of all, thanks to everyone who posts here. I am a newbie to real home espresso: I was using Nespresso during the last few years.

The information shared by the members of this forum has been invaluable to me and helped me selecting my Isomac Tea and my new Baratza/Mahlkonig Vario Grinder.

I got the grinder a few days ago together with a naked portafilter since I thought it can help me practice. At first, I used the spouted p/f to dial in and after a few shots I managed to get it right: 7g at 25-27 seconds producing a 25ml single shot with great crema and taste. So having read quite a few posts on the benefits of using a naked portafilter I pulled my first shot just to verify that my technique was right. I used the same basket, same dosing and tampering but I got an under-extraction and I had to stop the shot at 15 seconds. I pulled another shot but the result was the same. Then I swap the p/f and used the spouted p/f, instead. Again I used the same basket, dosing and tampering and the results were great again. This does not really make any sense to me. I don't think that the spout play any role in the pressure or flow. So what is causing this?

The first thing I suggest, is to use the double basket.

Doubles are generally much easier to get right, most likely because of the shape of the single basket. IMO, unless you are using a La Marzocco single basket, good luck.

The Tea is an E-61 HX, so it should be pretty damn close to how I did things on my Anita.

Get the stock double basket out, and pop it in the bottomless portafilter.

Use the WDT Method(while your starting out), outlined Here. Cut a yogurt cup's bottom off, so you can fit it in your basket, like a funnel. Use something to stir up the coffee. A skinny chopstick, a straightened paper clip, or the classic dissecting needle.

Set the Vario to grind 16grams of coffee.

Grind the coffee into the basket, with the yogurt cup attached. Stir up the coffee grounds.

Tamp. NO TAPPING THE PF WITH THE TAMPER. This only serves to ruin your puck prep. Tamp once, straight down. No twisting, tapping or polishing.

Pull your shot.
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If the stock double basket is the same as the one which came with my Anita(which is probably is), I found it worked best between 16-18grams. Using the WDT is like an insurance policy against bad extractions. I used it for about 99% of the time I owned Anita, stopped for a little while, and now I use with my VII. I probably dont "Need" too, but it works so great everytime, I just do.

The reason I suggest using the double basket, is because it's just easier to get a good extraction. Once you are comfortable using the double, then go back and try the single.

To answer your question, no, a bottomless PF has no effect on when the shot blondes. In fact, In my experience, I find the spouted PF makes the shot looks like its blonding sooner(though it isnt).

Use your bottomless PF for a while, while using the WDT, to get comfortable with your extractions. Once you feel like you are consistent, shot to shot, you can use the bottomless only when your dialing in a shot, and then switch to the spouted PF's, to pull your shots. I personally prefer the texture of a shot from the spouts. Using the bottomless, there is much more crema, but it collapses really quick. I also feel like the bottomless shots are "bulkier" if that makes sense, and that, compared to the spouts, need to be swirled in the cup/stirred. But I digress...

Use the Double Basket. Use the WDT. Start about 16gr of coffee.

FWIW.. I RARELY shoot for a full 2oz in 25, even 30 seconds. With most coffees, i find the shots taste much better, with a total volume of about 1.5-1.75, in 27-30seconds or so. I personally have yet to pull a 25sec, 2oz shot, that I really enjoyed. Of course, YMMV.

chrisms wrote: Then I swap the p/f and used the spouted p/f, instead. Again I used the same basket, dosing and tampering and the results were great again. ..... I don't think that the spout play any role in the pressure or flow. So what is causing this?

Sure it does. T=D/R ... Sound familiar? It will take longer (T=time) for the flow to blonde with a standard portafilter because the espresso has a longer path (D=distance) to flow through, at a constant rate of flow (R=rate). Additionally, some mixing will occur on the floor of the portafilter which makes the espresso look darker for a slightly longer period of time.

i would be more likely to assume that with the same basket, coffee, grind, and procedure that the coffee was blonding at about the same time previously, and that you should change the grind (finer) to get a better flow rate to avoid the early blonding.

1 - as everyone knows, the problem is always the tools.

2 - just follow the rules and recipes. they are magic.



the above is, of course, all to be read as if being spoken in a deeply ironic tone of voice

chrisms wrote:Use the Double Basket. Use the WDT. Start about 16gr of coffee.

I haven't try that but I will and post the results. Thanks for the guidelines.

JmanEspresso wrote:Sure it does. T=D/R ... Sound familiar? It will take longer (T=time) for the flow to blonde with a standard portafilter because the espresso has a longer path (D=distance) to flow through, at a constant rate of flow (R=rate). Additionally, some mixing will occur on the floor of the portafilter which makes the espresso look darker for a slightly longer period of time.

Oh yes, you are absolute right, basic physics . And it does look darker indeed less crema but more dense ... I adjusted the grinder to a finer setting but again I was not happy so I will start all over again with the 16g dose and use WDT.

Basically, I am quite happy with the taste I get when using the spout p/f but I want to experiment with the naked p/f just to make sure that I am getting the best out of it.

chrisms wrote:This does not really make any sense to me. I don't think that the spout play any role in the pressure or flow. So what is causing this?

When espresso runs through a spouted portafilter, many of the crema bubbles collapse. As a result, a shot that measures, say, 60ml in volume with a spouted portafilter would have measured 15%-20% more (70ml+) if prepared with a bottomless pf.

Because of this fact, many people using bottomless portafilters for the first time report the exact same thing that you do: the bottomless shots taste underextracted. But the problem occurs because they mistakenly compare shots pulled to equal volumes. This is like comparing apples to oranges.

Try pulling your naked shots to achieve 15-20% more volume in the cup and then make the comparison. Or better yet, pull shots onto a gram scale. Cut the naked shots when they have the same mass as the spouted shots. You will find that shots of the same mass taste fairly similar whether pulled with spouted or naked portafilters.

But not exactly similar: the naked shots will be a little fizzier, and they will lack the hot brass flavor that spouted pf aficionados have grown to love.

AndyS wrote:But not exactly similar: the naked shots will be a little fizzier

There have been a coupla folk that posted that the naked shots will taste more similar to the same shot pulled with spouts and then stirred, as well. YMMV.

Psyd wrote:There have been a coupla folk that posted that the naked shots will taste more similar to the same shot pulled with spouts and then stirred, as well. YMMV.

I think that makes sense because the naked stream pours from a greater height and self-mixes in the cup to a greater extent than the spouted stream(s).

I actually find it the opposite, as I usually want to, and do, swirl the cup when using the bottomless, but with the spout, I dont.