Beginner's refractometry (Apogee Technique) - Page 7

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
OldNuc
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#61: Post by OldNuc »

The majority of these refractometers have automatic temperature compensation (ATC) in the range you will ever use them in. The trick is the refractometer must be stable at the present temperature and the sample temperature must match the refractometer temperature and at that point the accuracy error will be insignificant.

If you set your work flow up identical to what Apogee has done then the absolute accuracy of the refractometer results are insignificant, what is of interest though is the repeatability of the refractometer.

If you are making decisions based on the output of the Coffee Tools software then absolute accuracy becomes important but if you are making decisions based on the results of your taste testing it is not. If you are using extraction percentages for bragging rights and coffee snob points then absolute refractometer accuracy is critical.

The addition of a digital readout to replace the human eyeball and a shadow on a etched scale gives the illusion of a degree of precision that does not actually exist until you start purchasing instruments that cost more than your grinder and espresso machine together.

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HB
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#62: Post by HB »

OldNuc wrote:The addition of a digital readout to replace the human eyeball and a shadow on a etched scale gives the illusion of a degree of precision that does not actually exist until you start purchasing instruments that cost more than your grinder and espresso machine together.
Guilty as charged. I went though a few years of gadgets oriented approach and later learned that adjusting by taste really wasn't that hard.

Peter really spelled it out in SCAA Sensory Skills [Psych] Test:
Peter wrote:I think that we, as a culture, are generally too insecure about our senses of taste and smell. I talk to dozens of folks every week who say something to me like "I just can't tell the difference between coffees" and "My palate isn't sophisticated enough to detect the differences you describe". I always call BS on that. I usually ask: "Can you tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi? Do you have a preference?" The answer is usually "yes" to both. I then reply; "The difference between those two brands of soda is much subtler than the difference between a mediocre Kenya and a great one." To put it in the context of our discussion: if you can taste the difference between Coke and Pepsi (differences in sweetness and acidity) and you can tell the difference between salted and unsalted soda crackers, you probably have the physical ability to pass the sensory skills test. The obstacle, therefore, is largely mental.
To elaborate on his point further, nobody second guesses their ability to discern colors. Few second guess their ability to discern sounds. What's it about taste that makes everyone so apprehensive? My theory is it's about the lack of common vocabulary beyond salty/sweet/sour. But like Peter said, it's rare to hand someone two drinks and they have trouble picking their favorite. That's why I always do blind taste tests with two different variants (i.e., two different coffees, two different espresso machines, two different grinders, whatever).

These kinds of discussions generate a lot of heated exchanges, so I'm preemptively renewing the cooldown of this thread.
Dan Kehn

Apogee (original poster)
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#63: Post by Apogee (original poster) »

Wow. Them there are fightin' words!

I want to throw this out there in respect to many forum members; I could not learn by taste. I actually gave up espresso because of it (not before you all taught me enough to make a God shot on a Silvia/Rocky!!!). I could not replicate that one shot for over 6 months. I threw everything espresso related in the dumpster. I lost it; not one of my better days. Even worse...I bought a Keurig!

One Saturday a year ago; I said I will not drink this anymore and threw it in the dumpster. Overnighted. Seriously overnight a Breville oracle based on a variant of this forum's recommendation of the BDB + Mahlkonig K30 for under $3000k solution for those who value the grinder over the machine. That's me! You all rock.

I got it in and I made garbage. I heard you all say fix by taste. I don't know what you expected me to understand or taste to tell me how to correct it. I was looking for somewhere to spit it; or at best tasting something kind of good but not knowing why.

So I ask you HB?!...What if refractometry is simply remedial taste training for folks like myself; and you all could cut us some slack with genuine respect? Another Jim, HB Team, Gary, Peppersass; we are doing our best to learn coffee from you all.

I drank keurig for god sake...and liked it for a while! I'm asking for a little refractometry breathing room as a learning beginner on these boards. My palate is getting there.

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SlowRain
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#64: Post by SlowRain »

It's kinda like learning math on a calculator first, isn't it? Don't shortcut things. Be patient. Everyone gets there. I know from my own experience I'm slower picking up espresso and roasting (and honing straight razors) than others. For some people it may be a musical instrument or woodworking or dance or something else. We just have to accept it and worker harder at it.

Your post makes mention of months. Some of us have been at it for a few years now. Patience is the key. From your actions with the dumpsters, as well as your comments above and elsewhere on this forum, I'd say that's where everything lies.

Apogee (original poster)
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#65: Post by Apogee (original poster) »

That was a deep thought moment and I thank you for it. Patience is a daily practice for me. Not a strength.

Yes it has only been a year or so fully absorbed back in the fruit. But when it tastes like burnt citrus monkey dung every single day and you need to cover it and wrap it in whole mik and sugar; and you dream of Starbucks!

Something has to give?! Refractometry broke me out...

MSully
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#66: Post by MSully »

Can you explain how the refractometer helped you? Did it highlight errors in your procedure or you're equipment that you then fixed? What did it do that other people don't do by taste? I'm glad it helped you make nice tasting coffee but I have plenty of experience with refratometers and they are literally the last thing I would suggest to someone on their coffee journey. I don't mean that they're useless but that their are so many other potential fixes that come first and can be done for free

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SlowRain
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#67: Post by SlowRain »

Burnt citrus monkey dung after just one year seems ahead of where I was. It took me at least two years before I could finesse out the monkey dung. But once I did, boy, was I ever happy that I finally had something more complex than just burnt citrus. :mrgreen:

Seriously, though, the problem is we live in a society that wants to shortcut absolutely everything. There is no solution other than time and hard work. And anyone who thinks otherwise is part of the problem. Machines and technology have helped in certain areas, particularly medicine, but they're not the grand solution people were hoping for. We're just beginning to figure that out now--what with all the environmental problems and lazy, self-entitlement--but most people don't want to admit it because the alternative is time and hard work. Most people don't want that.

Time, hard work, patience. Now, back to making coffee.

chrisbodnarphoto
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#68: Post by chrisbodnarphoto »

I don't believe anyone is hating on you, so to speak. We each have our path in any serious hobby, and if using s refractometer is best for you than absolutely go for it!

As has been mentioned, though, it's not the route for everyone. Simple TDS and EY don't automatically mean better coffee, and while it may be a more pleasant taste experience for you, it might be taking the wrong road in regards to developing your palate.

I consider coffee to be comparable to many other food and drink based hobbies - fine spirits, wine, cheese, and everything else that requires a developed pallet. The only way to really develop is to taste everything across the spectrum - delicious, terrible, sour, sweet, bitter, and everything in between. It helps our brains appreciate the tastiness when we know we've REALLY found something that tickles our palate (no pun intended).

Example :: if you were getting into wine, and were able to use a similar process to find what's 'good ' and 'not good' strictly by scientific testing, you would just open a dozen bottles, test, and throw the rest out ... Not fully understanding the process or what's happening (or happened) to have your palate react the way it has.

I don't think anyone is upset that you're happy with your home coffee program. I think everyone is just encouraging some experimentation and patience. :)

Apogee (original poster)
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#69: Post by Apogee (original poster) »

The first way a refractometer help me? It told me my technique was both awful and not related to my equipment.

The first step for a beginner in refractometry. Is make the same dose, brew ratio, EY% and TDS% recipe every time. Whether it was good or bad. Refractometry teaches repeatability. So I learned to make the same horrible shot every time.

At first I couldn't even make the same horrible shot. My technique wouldn't allow it. So I worked on my technique until I could make a 19.5g dose(20g VST), 1:2 brew ratio, 20% EY%, 9.65% TDS everytime; the defined average first "beginner's" recipe in refractometry.

It took me 3 months. I learned how to make that shot by testing every aspect of my coffee, water, gear and technique via refractometry and removing any source of variation. Normally me. Minimum interaction = Minimum variation.



Refractometry broke me out

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yakster
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#70: Post by yakster »

Sounds to me like you're using the refractometer to get your espresso in the ballpark where before you may have been so far off that you weren't able to dial in by making adjustments and tasting.

I get it. I work in radio communications and you align fixed wireless links by peaking the signal received by the antenna. Normally this is not too difficult, you can aim the antennas in the general direction and get enough signal to peak up on it but for very long paths, large antennas, or high frequencies there are times where you're far enough off with a tight enough acceptable signal level band that you can't find the good signal without tools like a compass, a level or protractor, a navigation app, sighting scopes, etc. If you're off on the vertical angle you can pan left and right all day and never see the signal. You can also line up on secondary peaks (sidelobes).

Anyway, probably not a very relatable analogy, but maybe the refractometer helps for cases where you can't tell bitter from sour, etc.
-Chris

LMWDP # 272

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