nixter wrote:The improved shots are obvious as I have a naked PF.

Really! And just how does the npf describe the taste?

Ken Fox wrote:It is my opinion that 12 or 14g of coffee is more than enough to make a balanced concentrated 1.0 or 1.5oz beverage...

Ken,

I am admittedly coming in on this very late and as a complete newbie. I am completely onboard with what you have presented in this thread, but I am unclear on something. Throughout this discussion you have talked about dosing for "doubles" with ~14g of coffee, yet the above quote implies that you are regularly only pulling 1.0 to 1.5 oz (a single shot volume) from that quantity of coffee. If that is true, then are you not, in fact, still overdosing by 100% as compared to what is defined as true espresso normale (7g for a 20-30ml drink)? I am not asking this to be in any way confrontational. I am completely onboard with the concept of using classical dosing and techniques. I am just looking for clarification, and I am not sure that you have actually taken this concept quite far enough. In your experimentation, have you pulled a true double volume (2.5 or 3.0 ounces total) from your ~14g dosed double baskets? If so, what is your opinion regarding the results? Please do not overlook the fact that when you refer to the Italians dosing with 12-14g or so that they are also most likely pulling two shots of volume through that dose, whereas people in the US cramming 20+g into a basket may typically be pulling one shot volume or less through it (it sounds like you yourself may only be pulling a single's worth of volume through your ~14g doses).

I have had the privilege of taking multiple trips to Italy and I love true Italian espresso and the whole culture that goes with it. That is what I try to replicate at home. As you have so correctly pointed out, the stuff that typical American cafes produce is not espresso (nor are soup bowls filled with milk cappucini). It is something different that reflects the never-ending tendency of Americans to take everything to the extreme and ruin it; the same tendency that causes most of the rest of the world to despise us. Americans may like the stuff, but it is not true espresso in the same sense that grappa is not wine. You previously hinted at people needing to use a different name for that stuff to differentiate it from true espresso. I humbly propose that it be referred to as "excesso" to reflect its uniquely American origin.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could provide clarification regarding the total volumes that you pull using you ~14g dosing. As you can guess, I typically strive to pull two shots (a good 2.5 oz) from a normally dosed (14 or 15g) double basket and I have been very pleased with my results as compared to true espresso as served in Italy. I have been puzzled on multiple occasions when I have seen people on forums refer to single baskets as something along the lines of "a cruel joke" because I have had great success in pulling true espresso singles using a single basket dosed with approximately 7 or 8g of coffee. After reading this whole thread it is now clear to me that those "cruel joke" comments about single baskets are coming from people who like making something that is upwards of five or six time more concentrated than true espresso is supposed to be (i.e. - a short single shot using 20+g of coffee). "Excesso", but to each his own.

7 grams of ground coffee per .75 - 1 ounce shot of espresso. 14 grams would make a double at 1.5 - 2 ounces.

I am quite new on the forum and just finished a barista training in the Netherlands, Europe, where the dosing, grooming and tamping methods were part of the training that is commonly found on home-barista.com as well. I have been confused as the amount of coffee in a single-shot basket was not half of that in a double-shot basket, the temperature of the espresso made with less coffee in a single basket higher than if I would pull 2 espresso's from a double basket filled to the rim, groomed and stamped "properly".

In fact, one of the single-shot baskets delivered with my espresso machine won't even fit in the brewhead if I were to follow somehow the methods prescribed here as well as in the book written by Scott Rao. Scott writes about the NSEW of Stockfleth's Move methods of grooming and elsewhere describes that for a single espresso you would need about 7 grams of coffee and for two espresso's 14 grams.

On this home-barista.com website these grooming methods as well as others such as the Weiss Distribution Technique (WDT) are advertised as the best method for grooming and getting consistent shots.

Is there any consensus on how to dose, do the grooming and tamp? Why are the instructions in the how-to section still not consistent with what is written in this thread? Am I missing anything important?

Sjoerd Jan

There is no golden rule.

Different baskets take different doses.
Different machines respond best to different dose ranges.
Different coffees respond (subjectively) better or worse to different doses.

It's all subjective.

VS_DoubleShot wrote:7 grams of ground coffee per .75 - 1 ounce shot of espresso. 14 grams would make a double at 1.5 - 2 ounces.

From INEI:

Necessary portion of ground coffee = 7 g ± 0,5
Exit temperature of water from the unit = 88°C ± 2°C
Temperature of the drink in the cup = 67°C ± 3°C
Entry water pressure = 9 bar ± 1
Percolation time = 25 seconds ± 2.5 seconds
Viscosity at = 45°C > 1.5 mPa s
Total fat = > 2 mg/ml
Caffeine = 100 mg/cup
Millilitres in the cup (including foam) = 25 ml ± 2.5

So they are talking roughly an ounce for a single. 22.5 (minimum single) would be about .75 ounces, so a double would be about one and a half at a minimum, and just under two (1.8 something ounces) at a maximum. So say the Italians. I've long suggested that we have at least some standards, if for nothing other than to describe what I make or want to have made would deviated from the standard.
Walk into twenty espresso shops and ask for a cappuccino, and get twenty different drinks.

I can name at least a half dozen top (critically acclaimed) shops that exceed the "maximum" dose as specified directly above.

And probably at least 75% of top NA shops exceed the previously provided "italian" specifications for dose.

Resist dogma.
Just taste what's in the cup.

People need to decide what they like, and you can only do that by experimenting. I used to enjoy "over-the-top, in-your-face designer espresso blends," 20 grams or even more crammed into a double (or triple) basket for a double shot. Over time, these became like a caricature of espresso to me, sort of like eating a whole pint of Ben & Jerry's ice cream in one sitting.

I also noticed that one had to do a song and dance in order to get most espresso machines to make drinks from these packed PF baskets without channeling or other problems. It was sort of like the machine was trying to tell me something

Nowadays, I don't much like these "over the top" blends, that demand that you use large doses in order for them to taste good. Rather, I prefer selected single origins dosed to Italian-ish parameters of ~14g, which I weigh out on a 0.1g gram scale. My current fave is Ethiopian Worka, which to my taste is just about the best single origin I've ever roasted for espresso (I terminate the roasts 2 or 3 degrees before 2nd crack would begin).

I put the 14g into the PF, twirl my tamper in there for a second, lock and load and pull the shot. That is my current "barista technique." I never get channeling anymore, my shots are very consistent and I think the shots taste better, but then, that is just me. I am able to drink more shots each day, and I no longer have lengthy "refractory periods" after drinking espresso, in the sense that one feels like one couldn't or wouldn't drink another one for awhile because a "recovery period" is necessary.

I can fully understand why someone else would prefer something else. It's a free country (and mostly a free world) so play with the parameters and find what you like best.

ken

I think you're right Ken. I've stuck with the fluffing method and the result is better coffee through less of it in the basket.

Ken,

I've always admired your attempts at improving espresso. Given your enthusiasm for the 14g espresso, I think its time you finally take a step up (or is it down?) to a 43-45mm home lever, i.e. Ponte Vecchio or Caravel. That way you can use 14g and still use a full basket! Pair it with a nice hand grinder. Fluffy grinds, no static, no clumping, from drawer to basket in a flash, and you're ready to pull the shot. For precise temp control the open boiler Caravel is unbeatable, and the PV is a steam demon for those 6-oz am Cappas. Really no better 2-group on the market.

Happy holidays!

PC

malachi wrote:Resist dogma.
Just taste what's in the cup.

Eat the rich, and the Green Monster will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. Yeah, and 'Resist Dogma' is starting to become somewhat dogmatic, here, as is 'Taste is the only yardstick'.
While this is great advice, having some vocabulary to describe just how you arrive at the taste you like is one step beyond the basic necessity for language. Taken to extremes in the other direction, describing how you like your coffee to be made as, "Good, please", isn't going to be that helpful to your barista.
If you use one word to describe a half-a-dozen things, that word is meaningless. If we use a half-a-dozen words to describe one thing, the words become meaningless. Our lexicon in the US, as it applies to specialty coffee, is, shall we say, remarkably diverse. Most of it has been rendered useless by a certain Monster coffee sales maven.
I'm just saying that an accurate discussion, especially in written form, requires some more accurate terminology.
Deciding what is what, and what describes what, won't change the taste, just our ability do discuss it with more definitive terms.

Saying that these so-called golden rules are not universal - and that people should determine what they like and not simply assume that what someone else likes is in any way valid for them - is different from saying we should not have terminology.

Believe me... if you ask anyone who knows me (or read any of the stuff I've written) I'm big on terminology and descriptors.

I'm just not big on rules about the "best" way (or god forbid the "true" way) to make espresso and I'm very, very down on dogma about the "right" way to make or enjoy espresso.

Making espresso is much like learning to play an instrument. Beginners want (and need) pretty firm guidelines. Usually they are flailing around, making terrible noise and looking for a way out. As they gain more experience and their skills grow, they become more comfortable improvising.

So, I think a few simple rules are very helpful for newbies. But, (almost) anything goes, if you know what you are doing and why.

"Wow" what an interesting thread... Thanks Ken. I have not been able to peruse HBs various forums for some time and this one has been particularly fun... Even though it has taken me a couple of days to get through.
I have weighed my doses for 2 years now for consistency and been quite happy with the results.
However, as you stated, your previous dosing practices were 18 - 21 grams. I was always dosing the same as you. I came from using a PID'd Silvia with the 21 gram baskets... When I went to lever machines my 1st inclination was to find a 21 gram basket for the 51 mm portafilter of a La Pavoni... I did find one that fit but had sold the unit before they arrived (did not like the quality of the Milleniums), but did sell the baskets to others on this (HB) site... Never to hear from them again... Hmm, I wonder why? I opted to go with Leva 'A' baskets for the 49mm Pavonis and Creminas I own and dosed them at 17 grams every day.
Anyway I have recently tried what you have been professing with my SO home roasts and "Wow" again... The results were as you and others here have described! Thank you to all for the great posts and such an informative and entertaining thread! You have taught this 'old daug' a new trick!

I have often referred to the golden rule (or rules) as less a rule and more a starting point or guideline. Most of us have a few years under our belts and many much more than that. We have learned enough about the craft to move beyond the basic guidelines to find what we like and experiment with the extraction space. However, if you are new to the craft you need some kind of basic guide to get started, which is where the golden rule comes in, along with all of the other recommended starting points. My two beans worth of opinion.

In my opinion the 14 grams doesn't work for the entire shelf life of most coffee's. Especially if you buy several bags per order and it takes a week or two to finish them. I find that as the coffee ages, and I think others have voiced the same opinion, upping the dose helps to continue to get good flavor. The smaller 14 gram starts to taste awful.

In addition, some coffee's have very interesting characteristics that are not as present in lower doses. For example, Ethiopian Sidamo can have a wonderful berry aroma and flavor that really explodes at higher doses while it's more subdued at lower doses. Now it depends on your audience and you goals. So if you know you are pulling a coffee that has some really crazy flavors at higher doses, and you want your taste buds, or someone else's taste buds to experience it, then I say go for it. There is absolutely no good reason to feel like you have to go to a lower dose because someone thinks Americans have done something bad by going for larger doses.

There is a component of food that is very much like an art. We see today's chef's continuing to wow their patrons with unique and interesting combinations of flavors from various cultures. Especially in America we see cultures from all over the world getting mixed up in the kitchen and catering to the American palate. This is expected and should be welcomed. When I'm in Japan, they mix things up for the Japanese palate, and I don't blame or flame them for doing it. It's a privilege when I visit to experience their interpretations of American, or Italian as they use of the ingredients that they have access and cater to the Japanese palate.

And for the Americans, we have them cafe's making a 1-1.25 ounce double that has some crazy interpretation of the coffee bean in comparison to the Italian standard. I happen to like both ways and enjoy them both in their proper place. I would like to see some of these cafe's show a little more variation in their extraction technique, going from the lower doses to the higher doses. And actually I do see that happening to some extend in places like Barefoot Coffee roasters. Depending on the Barista, one might prefer to overpack while another barely packs. And you can taste the variation in their preferences. I would like to see the variation exist within each and every Barista and have more to do with the particular coffee bean.

I think some Barista's murder a bean trying to get it to extract a syrupy 1 ounce when it would taste much better at a lower dose and higher volume. But again, sometimes it's not just the bean, but also the age that effects whether a lower dose would do a bean justice.